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What an embarrassing night for all Jazz fans (4/14/14). Tank crowd can suck a fat one. (LONG)

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill

Cliché and largely untrue at the professional level.

I coach U-10 soccer, which qualifies me as a sports psychologist. Most of my time is spent teaching, and getting players to improve their individual skills. The progress is very visible and dramatic even over short time spans.

Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, Burke, etc. are not 10 years old (will provide link/source later). They may still learn and improve, but the return on that investment is barely noticeable compared to when they were younger. The coach's job at this level is not to teach them how to dribble or how to shoot or "how to win" -- they already have that skillset for the most part. His job is to put them in a position to succeed. He's a chessmaster deciding how to best use his assets and which strategy will work best against his opponent. To be fair to Corbin, he opened his chess set to find a bishop, a knight that cant jump, some pawns, a checker, and a couple of marbles. And then he started playing Candy Land with the pieces.

So this is basically a restatement of what most have said, but the Jazz don't need to learn anything -- what, you gunna teach a pawn how to jump over an opponent? Good luck with that. They need better pieces. And someone who knows how to use them.
 
Cliché and largely untrue at the professional level.

I coach U-10 soccer, which qualifies me as a sports psychologist. Most of my time is spent teaching, and getting players to improve their individual skills. The progress is very visible and dramatic even over short time spans.

Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, Burke, etc. are not 10 years old (will provide link/source later). They may still learn and improve, but the return on that investment is barely noticeable compared to when they were younger. The coach's job at this level is not to teach them how to dribble or how to shoot or "how to win" -- they already have that skillset for the most part. His job is to put them in a position to succeed. He's a chessmaster deciding how to best use his assets and which strategy will work best against his opponent. To be fair to Corbin, he opened his chess set to find a bishop, a knight that cant jump, some pawns, a checker, and a couple of marbles. And then he started playing Candy Land with the pieces.

So this is basically a restatement of what most have said, but the Jazz don't need to learn anything -- what, you gunna teach a pawn how to jump over an opponent? Good luck with that. They need better pieces. And someone who knows how to use them.

This will be rep'd in roughly 22hrs.

Genuinely one of my favorite posters.
 
The following may sound douchey, but since it's true, you'll have to deal with it: if you have never played competitive sports, particularly basketball, you are most likely in the pro-tank crowd. Here is why that's such a foolish perspective on this season.

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill. Outcomes of games aren't coincidental in most cases. In basketball, there are hundreds of elements to the game and how it's played to be in position to win a game. Among those elements are something as simple as execution of basic fundamentals to as complex as a read-and-react action based on how secondary defender is guarding. The teams that do a combo of all those things better and more consistently, and at the right times, win.

The primary outrage of the Jazz consumers should lie squarely on Greg Miller who's made the choice to penny-pinch with a coach while the roster restructured from the D-Will/Booz era. Corbin may be a great guy, and perhaps knows more about basketball than any of us could ever dream of. But guess what? He can't ****ing teach it. Obviously, our roster this season featured plenty of young guys with bright futures. They had the same breakdowns defensively tonight against the Lakers (specifically guarding the pick-and-roll) that they did the first game of the preseason - and basically every game in between.

Favors and Kanter react to double teams as poorly as they have since they've come to the Jazz under Corbin's tutelage.

Burke showed his moxy as a 'killer' during the Big Dance, and several times this season. Burks was THE breakout player of the season for us, and the most positive storyline for us. He was a complete monster in the 2nd half of the season, and looks to be a star in the making. I thought I had seen enough to gather what a 'best-case scenario' would be for him last season, but he surpassed that for sure this year. His relentlessness attacking the cup and ability to get buckets in the lane, and trips to the FT line, is rare and will be an awesome piece for us.

Hayward has a really, really nice all-around game. He's had plenty of time to display a killer, alpha-dog mentality but hasn't even come close, and if he stays he'll be complementary as opposed to the star as many of us had once envisioned.

Those five NEEDED to learn to what it takes to win games in the league this year.

The window of opportunity is short, and we have talent to be a real contender down the road. If we had a capable coach the last few years grooming these pups, there's no way we finish as crappy as we do this year.

The most concerning part for me is that there's no way any of the players were 'tanking', and I'm 99.9% sure the coaching staff wasn't prepping for games or making subs with the conscious hope that it leads to a loss. To do that as a player would be admitting they aren't good enough to be real, so lets suck to try and get a good lotto pick and someone who may be good.

There's no guarantee (sans a guy every few years) that a top 3 pick rookie will be a franchise-changing, immediate impact player. To be honest, none of the current guys in the draft will be the reason a team becomes a bona fide playoff team in the next two years. So to go through a season where our great nucleus of five (TB, AB, GH, DF, EK) can't gain the invaluable experience of winning close games, and/or blowing teams out - and knowing how/why they did so - for the chance to take a kid who may or may not pan out down the line is awful. To want that is a joke, and displays cluelessness.

Aaron Gordon is the most NBA ready of all these guys because he'll be able to contribute at a relatively high level defensively and I haven't seen him projected to go top 3 anywhere. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

It is imperative the Jazz find a coach who not only is capable with the dry-erase board, but understands teaching the game and developing talent and cohesion on the court.

We've got 5 MFs who are really good in the talent dept for their respective positions, but need to be coached up at an NBA level in the worst way.

Jazz fans should've been rallying to get these 5 to get some confidence playing for and with each other by getting dubbs this year. There were plenty available.

No one who has a casual-fan's basketball mind can say the Lakers roster is more talented, or better, than the Jazz tonight. What was the difference then?
George Karl is available. He's pretty good with young players and winning.
 
Started on a state title team and played DII for four years. I was hoping some members of Jazzfanz could talk basketball on a basketball message board. If you disagree that developing a winning culture is vital to building a title contender that is fair, but hopefully you can take some time to provide some reasoning as I have.

You'd expect someone with this much bball experience to understand the importance of BBIQ.
 
Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, Burke, etc. are not 10 years old (will provide link/source later). They may still learn and improve, but the return on that investment is barely noticeable compared to when they were younger. The coach's job at this level is not to teach them how to dribble or how to shoot or "how to win" -- they already have that skillset for the most part. His job is to put them in a position to succeed.

I disagree entirely. Winning in the NBA is different than any level these youngsters have played at, and an NBA coach NEEDS to teach these young'ns what it takes to win. As for putting them in a position to succeed, that should entail coaching them so as they fix the errors they make on both sides of the ball.

Since Corbin has been the coach, the Jazz have been among the worst in the league in transition defense and pick-and-roll defense. Guess what? The NBA is primarily an up and down game, and 2-man or 1-man isos in the halfcourt.

It's one thing if our bigs are so physically limited to the point where they can't hedge and recover, or our guards can't fight over a screen or trail a cutter the proper way, but from my perspective our five are solid athletically (compared to others around the league at their position) and have plenty of raw tools to continue to sharpen to become even better.

For now, lets focus on Kanter who I've been in love with since I saw him workout before he got to Kentucky...

He's got unteachable/natural size, strength and mobility for a big guy. He also possesses that intangible 'nose for the ball' in terms of rebounding, and understands fighting for position before/as shots go up. Lastly, he's got great touch and a great feel for how to score in the post.

However, he was beyond raw entering the league in terms of the competition he plays against in the NBA. He was as lost defensively last night as he was in the preseason. Forget about being involved defensively in a pick-and-roll, lets focus on his understanding of team defense and help-side - or lack thereof. Maybe he's just one big dumbass and hasn't made a stride despite hours of film breakdown with the coaches, or maybe the coaches were ineffective in teaching him those vital fundamentals on defense in the NBA. Either way, any improvement he makes in that category makes us that much better on a nightly basis. There are countless examples for the other guys two in different facets of the game.

My hope was to have had a staff in place this season to help the progression for our five (even if making the playoffs was never a possibility). The little things all these guys need to learn are what add up to 'winning games'. All five were lotto picks for a reason. We'd be in much better shape for next year (regardless if we end up with the 1 or 7 in this draft) had that been the case. We'll see if the new staff can be more effective in teaching our lotto picks the nuances that are critical to success.
 
Jazz do need to learn how to win games. And yes, it's more important than a draft pick. But if you acquire a superstar candidate, you have a product in your hand for the association to support with advertising etc. So you have a bigger chance of growing your franchise into a true contender for the ages.

You see, the problem with the Jazz is, they might have picked the wrong guy to control this process. Corbin's Jazz team was one of the most high potential young roster in the league but this season showed that he is lacking the ability to lead them to a point. A point like the Spurs team. Or a point like OKC.

dude, can't you just stick with one font-family?
 
I disagree entirely. Winning in the NBA is different than any level these youngsters have played at, and an NBA coach NEEDS to teach these young'ns what it takes to win. As for putting them in a position to succeed, that should entail coaching them so as they fix the errors they make on both sides of the ball.

All five were lotto picks for a reason. We'd be in much better shape for next year (regardless if we end up with the 1 or 7 in this draft) had that been the case. We'll see if the new staff can be more effective in teaching our lotto picks the nuances that are critical to success.

Yes, Corbin sucks. 95% of this board thinks he sucks and has thought that for the past three years. Sidney Lowe is even worse. We need better coaching and better development of our young core. No one is arguing that fact.

That doesn't mean all is lost - we just need to ensure Corbin is gone and we have an excellent replacement.

As for the idea that we'd be better off with "teaching the young guys how to win" in a way that would result with 4 more wins this year (which is the 7th record in the NBA) resulting in a draft pick of Vonleh, or getting, say Wiggins or Parker, you are an absolute fool if you don't think the latter option is far, far better.

While it sucks the young core didn't develop as much this year as they could have under a different coach, assuming a coaching change next year, they'll have plenty of opportunities to learn those same lessons then.
 
LeMarcus Aldridge would be "learning how to win" in a different team by now if POR hadn't drafted Lillard.


/thread
 
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