Where does Utah fit in the West?

[NAOS]

And yet it is all we have to go on and it points to him being a great defender on the wing. I am not arguing against picking up a wing defender. I am saying all the evidence we have says that Exum will help address that issue. It'll take more than 1 to have elite perimeter D

Right now, I have way more cautious optimism for Exum. I don't think you can prove "great[ness]" (your word) in under two full seasons. NBA players and coaches adjust to an opponent's strengths and weaknesses, so a player needs to round the bases a few times.

Last year showed his potential.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

The offense could improve by a handful of points per game the very moment Lyndsey decides to actually build out the whole roster. Like, build it for an actual run in the playoffs.

Ingles, Johnson, Pleiss, Burke, and Booker are, with respect to offense, easily upgradable. Look at what Portland did to the middle and end of its roster in a single ****ing offseason. One. And then look what it's getting them right now.

Our offensive ineptitude this year points directly at Lyndsey, and indirectly at everybody else.

And yet, had Utah been healthy, we could have easily been the team that played the clippers and got to the 2nd round because of injuries to their best 2 players. I think some fans are overestimating the difference between those 2 teams right now. Utah surely does have room to improve, but they are also in a better position than some fans are giving them credit for.

 

[NAOS]

And yet, had Utah been healthy, we could have easily been the team that played the clippers and got to the 2nd round because of injuries to their best 2 players. I think some fans are overestimating the difference between those 2 teams right now. Utah surely does have room to improve, but they are also in a better position than some fans are giving them credit for.

I agree that Lyndsey has put himself and the organization in an excellent position to make bold and decisive moves. I said the same thing last year.

"had Utah been healthy..."

how about

"had Utah been built to better withstand or offset some of these injuries..."

 

[Stoked]

I agree that Lyndsey has put himself and the organization in an excellent position to make bold and decisive moves. I said the same thing last year.

"had Utah been healthy..."

how about

"had Utah been built to better withstand or offset some of these injuries..."

Last season he should have done this. This season he needs to do this.

 

[karl malone]

Assuming we stay on our current trajectory (although a lot depends on Exum's development), we seem poised to fit in that "non-championship caliber playoff regular" category. Like someone said, our defense could be our "star" but we will still need that go-to offensive option who can take over at the end of games (especially come playoff time). Hood &/or Lyles could eventually become that guy for us but acquiring a potential #1 option should be our main priority.

I know it's not a popular opinion, but I still think we need to explore potential trades for Hayward. He is a very good player & someone you can win with as your team's #2/3 option but due to his opt-out clause, I would prefer to see this team take a risk on potential rather than risk losing Hayward for nothing or paying the max in order to retain him. Unless we are somehow able to add an established superstar to our core of Hayward, Favors, & Gobert, trading him for a high draft pick is likely our best opportunity to contend.

This team could stand pat, draft another solid contributor at #12, add a veteran or 2, re-sign Hayward, & be playoff regulars for the foreseeable future but I don't see this roster ever competing for a championship as currently constructed. I understand that fans are anxious to get back to our winning ways but I hope the team makes the correct adjustment(s) to this rebuild, even if it means an additional year or 2 of losing, as I feel this team has the potential to become legitimate contenders in the near future with the right acquisition(s).

 

[fishonjazz]

"had Utah been healthy..."

how about

"had Utah been built to better withstand or offset some of these injuries..."

No team is built to withstand the injuries that the jazz had.

Show me a team that would be just fine if it's starting point guard missed 82 games, starting pf and center missed about 20 games each, best bench player missed 50 ish games and then have other guys (Booker, Hayward, hood, ect) miss a handful too.

Is there a team in the nba built to withstand that? Maybe 1 or 2 but it's not the norm to build teams to be able to withstand those injuries.

Last year the thunder had one dude miss a bunch of games. No playoffs for them.

How good would the warriors be if curry missed the whole year, draymond and bogut missed 20 games each, and iggy missed 50.

Probably not that good but the expectation for the jazz is that they are built to handle injuries better than the best team in the league and possibly the best team of all time.

Seems unrealistic

 

[NAOS]

No team is built to withstand the injuries that the jazz had.

Show me a team that would be just fine if it's starting point guard missed 82 games, starting pf and center missed about 20 games each, best bench player missed 50 ish games and then have other guys (Booker, Hayward, hood, ect) miss a handful too.

Is there a team in the nba built to withstand that? Maybe 1 or 2 but it's not the norm to build teams to be able to withstand those injuries.

Last year the thunder had one dude miss a bunch of games. No playoffs for them.

Why must there always be a jazzfanzer who takes things in the most redonkulous way possible?

Did I say the team needed to be "just fine"? We've been over this at least three times. I said "better withstand or offset some injuries". That'a long way from "fine". Good hell.


LOL at the Thunder's injuries last year being summarized as "one dude". LMFAO

 

[fishonjazz]

I said "better withstand or offset some injuries".

They withstood them pretty damn well. Had a decent shot at the 5th seed and a second round playoff appearance and had a great shot at the playoffs. Despite those injuries. Do you expect the jazz to have their starting point guard miss the entire season, starting pf and center miss 20 games, best bench player miss 50 games and other guys miss a handful of games and then just cruise into the playoffs no problem? I don't expect any team in the nba to suffer those injuries and cruise into the playoffs.
I would be proud of any team with those injuries if they had a great chance at the playoffs during the last week of the season.
I would be proud of their gm for putting together a team that could do so well despite all the injuries too... Not criticize him.

The jazz problem was not/is not depth.
Swap exum, hayward, and favors for curry Thompson and green. Don't add any depth. Don't upgrade cj ingles or booker.
Curry, thompson, hood, green, gobert, burks, lyles, booker, mack, ingles, withey, cj. That team competes for a title imo.

The 4th wing or 4th big or 3rd point guard don't have much sway on how good a team is. It's the top end talent. The reason the jazz missed the playoffs is because of an unordinary and unpredictable amount of injuries to some of their best players and a their top end talent not being good enough.

 

[NAOS]

They withstood them pretty damn well. Had a decent shot at the 5th seed and a second round playoff appearance and had a great shot at the playoffs. Despite those injuries. Do you expect the jazz to have their starting point guard miss the entire season, starting pf and center miss 20 games, best bench player miss 50 games and other guys miss a handful of games and then just cruise into the playoffs no problem? I don't expect any team in the nba to suffer those injuries and cruise into the playoffs.
I would be proud of any team with those injuries if they had a great chance at the playoffs during the last week of the season.
I would be proud of their gm for putting together a team that could do so well despite all the injuries too... Not criticize him.

The jazz problem was not/is not depth.
Swap exum, hayward, and favors for curry Thompson and green. Don't add any depth. Don't upgrade cj ingles or booker.
Curry, thompson, hood, green, gobert, burks, lyles, booker, mack, ingles, withey, cj. That team competes for a title imo.

The 4th wing or 4th big or 3rd point guard don't have much sway on how good a team is. It's the top end talent. The reason the jazz missed the playoffs is because of an unordinary and unpredictable amount of injuries to some of their best players and a their top end talent not being good enough.

^I can't even make it through this post. You're better than this. You know what my stance is. Why do you need this form of false praise? This year sucked. Lyndsey should have done more. If he had, then we'd have been in the playoffs. The math is ****ing easy, broooough.

 

[fishonjazz]

I have said it before and I will say it again.
Ingles, cj, booker, withey are not the jazz problem. Those guys are 4 and 5th string. Compare ingles with other good teams 4th wings. He is just as good as most.
Compare booker and withey with other teams 4th and 5th bigs. They are as good as most.

Teams don't look for great high paid 4th string guys. They know that if their 4th string guys are playing a lot then they are ****ed.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I fully support a trade that brings in a star. I assume every Jazz fan supports a trade that brings in a better player. Love is not that player or a good trade. We are in a great position. If a star player is up for grabs we have a pretty decent ability to trade for him. But we are not desperate we have the players to be a good basketball team and a chance (small one) of being a great team if the players develop right. I think our best hope and the most likely outcome of our team is having 5 starters that are borderline all-stars. Very few teams have had that to compare to. I think that makes us a a top 3-4 team in the west and maybe we break through one year.

There is no reason to risk our future out of desperation. Make a good trade if it comes along and if it doesnt keep developing players and drafting well. Just make sure that trade is not giving up to much and improves that position and the team. I have a dislike of Love though since he spurned my Ducks and his family tradition for that ****ty school in cali. If you trade for someone from Cavs if they lose in the playoffs this year, go after Irving. He is signed for 4 more seasons at a good max salary. He is an elite PG and wants to be a star of a team. We would probably have to get a third team involved though since what we would be trading for him wouldn't be what Cavs want.

I think a couple pretty good players might be available this off season that we would want and could try for. Make offers for (almost for sure rejected and/or matched but still try) KD, DeRozan and Beal. Hope that Irving, Paul George, Russel Westbrook, maybe Cousins, John Wall or Butler gets put on the trading block.

If none of those players become available then maybe look at some lower lvl players to trade for if they are really good deals or can sign as a FA. If all that strikes out then shore up the bench with some vets and roll into next season with making the playoffs as your number 1 goal.

 

[NAOS]

I have said it before and I will say it again.
Ingles, cj, booker, withey are not the jazz problem. Those guys are 4 and 5th string. Compare ingles with other good teams 4th wings. He is just as good as most.
Compare booker and withey with other teams 4th and 5th bigs. They are as good as most.

Teams don't look for great high paid 4th string guys. They know that if their 4th string guys are playing a lot then they are ****ed.

was Booker our 4th or 5th big? Lyles never exactly over-took him, and due to injuries he was never that buried. You know this, though, and are just being willfully ignorant.
the deeper end of wing rotations -- on good teams -- are either more talented or more experienced. Mostly both. Have a (better) look for yourself.
Also: Neto and Burke. C'mon.

 

[fishonjazz]

You know what my stance is.

Nope. No clue what you expected from the jazz management last off season.

They had a team put together to compete for a playoff spot (and actually be the favorite to get a playoff spot) all the way until the last week of the season despite having the worst injury situation possible.

If you expected more then your expectations were too high.

 

[fishonjazz]

was Booker our 4th or 5th big?

yes. Or lyles.
Take your pick. Either guy is just as good as most teams 4th big.

the deeper end of wing rotations -- on good teams -- are either more talented or more experienced. Mostly both. Have a (better) look for yourself.

Wrong.
I already went through the 3-6 seeds in the east and west (what I consider good teams... And I was being generous by not including the 7 and 8 seeds) and compared their 4th wing in the rotation to ingles. Guess what? Not much difference between ingles and those teams 4th wings.

The difference was that those teams were usually healthier and had better top end talent.

 

[NAOS]

Nope. No clue what you expected from the jazz management last off season.

They had a team put together to compete for a playoff spot (and actually be the favorite to get a playoff spot) all the way until the last week of the season despite having the worst injury situation possible.

If you expected more then your expectations were too high.

Do you toe the company-line this closely at Dannon? Yesus Christo. Yick.

I've had it in my sig for 9-months: I'm as anti-cakk as I can get. The lack of activity last free agency sent me into daily tirades around here.... and you live here.

 

[NAOS]

yes. Or lyles.
Take your pick. Either guy is just as good as most teams 4th big.

Wrong.
I already went through the 3-6 seeds in the east and west (what I consider good teams... And I was being generous by not including the 7 and 8 seeds) and compared their 4th wing in the rotation to ingles. Guess what? Not much difference between ingles and those teams 4th wings.

The difference was that those teams were usually healthier and had better top end talent.

you did that deep of a study?? Please provide a link. That'll be the first "study" in your career on JFC. I can't wait.

 

[NAOS]

yes. Or lyles.
Take your pick. Either guy is just as good as most teams 4th big.

just had to turn around and LOL directly at this

 

[fishonjazz]

you did that deep of a study?? Please provide a link. That'll be the first "study" in your career on JFC. I can't wait.

I wish i knew where to find it. Since i dont i will do a real quick list of 4th wings (like ingles) and 4th bigs (like booker) of those teams.

Guys to compare to ingles: (to be fair to the study im going off when a team is totally healthy) Gerald green (a decent improvement), tim hardaway jr (similar experience and help with winning games to ingles imo), james young (ingles might be the better and more experienced player), micheal kidd gilchrist (about the same as ingles? Should be better but really has not been), kyle singler (about the same as ingles), jamal crawford (the best of the bunch probably. The clipps are pretty deep at the wing), gerald henderson (a small upgrade), rodney stuckey (pretty decent upgrade), Stanley johnson (pretty good upgrade with less experience than ingles), lance stephenson (they have vince carter, tony allen, matt barnes and lance... pretty damn deep), corey brewer (a little bit of an upgrade.
Dallas is a hard one to say. They have d-will and devin harris listed as shooting guards which makes the wing depth look good (4th wing would be devin harris in that case) i think they are pointguards (4th wing would be justin anderson or jeremy evans who they have listed as a sf... ingles is better than both imo)
The only really significant upgrade to ingles of all those playoff rosters is jamaal crawford who shot 40% from the field and 34% from the field. (ingles was 43% and 39%) Stanley johnson (a rookie), lance stephenson, and rodney stuckey might be a decent upgrade. But most of those guys suck or never play or both.

As for 4th bigs (booker or lyles) we have: amare stoudamire (pretty good upgrade), kris humphries (i will take our guy), jonas jerebko (i like our guys better but can see jerebko being better), tyler hansboro (i like our guys better), nick collison (small upgrade to our guys), cole aldrich (with the exception of the one game against us, i like our guys better lol), ed davis (upgrade to book, but i would rather have lyles), sala mejri (i like our guys better), jordan hill (i like our guys better), aaron baynes (close but i take our guys), birdman (i would rather have book or lyles), terrence jones (clear upgrade.)

After having it laid out like that its clear that there is room for upgrades. However i believe that 90% of those guys dont tip the scales basically at all to the point of making the jazz much better than lyles, booker, and ingles do.
hardaway, jr
james young
kidd gilchrist
kyle singler
gerald henderson
justin anderson
corey brewer
chris humphries
Tyler hansboro
cole aldrich
jordan hill
aaron baynes
birdman
..... Not a lot of guys moving the needle there and guys like stanley johnson were draft picks and not the type of guys you can acquire. I also didn't take into account for chemistry issues, locker room issues (lance stephenson), salaries in comparison to joe ingles, etc.

Still I definately see some upgrades there so you have a good point. terrence jones, amare stoudamire, jamaal crawford, stanley johnson, lance stephenson, gerald green and a few more are upgrades to our guys.

Im not going to look up minutes played by all those players but i would bet that booker and ingles had to play more than most of these guys due to our injuries. Ideally none of these guys on any of these teams should see much court time.

 

[silesian]

You are all over the place with this post. I don't even know where to start.

Hayward is not a star.

Love is a star.

It's that simple. If you want any hope of doing anything, you need a star.

Love can average 25 pts a game. Not many people can do that. No one on the Jazz can do that. Love is a PF that is an elite level rebounder and can stretch the floor with his three point shot.

We HOPE Lyles can do that, and reality is, Lyles will probably never be as good as Love.

Those of you knocking Love...just don't. It doesn't speak well of you.

Sorry, bully-man. Telling people to not express their opinion on a forum is a curious habit. You may want to get some help with that.

Let me ask you a question: would LeBron have carried the Wolves to the playoffs in on of six seasons? Do you know that Love has averaged 25 ppg only twice in 8 years, his last being the 2013 season? You know his rebounding is down from peak of 15+ to below 10? You need to stop watching old highlight reels and get grounded in the NBA of 2016. Putting Love in the same category as LeBron, Durant, Curry is just silly. He's not even in the same category as Draymond and Millsap.

Facts are stubborn.

Kevin Love is probably a top 30 player. Gordon is probably a top 40 player. Are there any stars outside the top 15?

 

[Ron Mexico]

Is a healthy Chris Bosh a star?

I dont think so and I think his career is what Loves is following. The best player of a team that couldnt do much (although Bosh took his team further) kind of like Hayward. Once paired with a real super star they could win. Now if you had a team full at every position of this level of players maybe you could win if things worked out the right way, like the 2004 Pistons.