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Why I think being a Muslim is rational.

SiroMar said:
So you honestly think you somehow "disproved" my point about Islam's destabilizing effect by pointing out an instance of goodwill? If this conversation is about my excessive use of hyperbole, then yes, you win. You've yet to address my point. Through out the Muslim world, you have oppression of women and minorities, savage and barbaric Sharia laws, terrorism and social backwardness. It is all justified in the name of Islam. That is THEIR interpretation of Islam. Why do you keep talking about history? How many times do I need to acknowledge Muslim contributions to humanity before you stop hiding behind history and respond to what I'm saying!
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I haven't been living underneath a rock for all of my life- I am fully aware of all that you have said, particularly the excerpt that I am quoting above. As you are begging me for a response, what do you want me to say, really? Look: I realize that although my religion has definitely done good in this humanity, it has also been detrimental. You are correct, they have looked at the islamic faith, and used it as their justification for terrible deeds. What else can I add to this? It is a damn shame. However, atrocities committed in the name of religion are not unique to my faith. So, what I try to do, is try to balance the negatives with the positives, see what this faith offers to me, and appreciate the balance that I feel in my life as a result of practicing it. It is something that nearly every person of every faith does. In my opinion, Islam has definitely offered many good things to humanity, and has offered a large list of positive things to my life. So keeping that in mind, when I see posts like yours, saying that Islam has never contributed anything positive to humanity, it just kinda strikes a fibre with me, especially seeing as there is a large list of evidence that indicates the contrary. However, you have apologized for your excessive hyperboles, so I can accept that. It also annoyed me that you seemed to use a large part of your argument based on events relating to very recent Islamic history, which obviously paints a poor image on my faith. I resort to looking past these 40 years as evidence that it really has a history of tolerance in respect to other Abrahamic faiths; I am not using it as evidence that my faith has long had a history free of any wrongdoings, if that makes any sense. Regardless, it all stems down to what Stoked was saying in his posts. If one single book has been responsible for making people do everything form housing Jews in their own home, and risking their own lives during the Holocaust, to decapitating Red Cross doctors inexplicably, I see this as an absolute testament to the fact that peoples actions that are taken in the name of faith, shouldn't be directly tied with the faith itself as black and white as both you and I make it. Do you get what I'm trying to say? Its a rather long block of text, sorry if I'm not being completely coherent or anything.

Islam spreads in India, Muslims demand separation, and a bitter conflict is created.
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Though the issue was far more complicated than simple religious divide (heck, they damn-near stayed united under the avoidance of Gandhi), I can see your point in this instance.

Same situation is Serbia.
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Now this, I completely disagree with. I know my Balkan history like the back of my hand. Islamic separatists were only formed in Bosnian and Kosovar countries. These were formed AFTER the seperation of non-Muslim countries like Slovenia, and Croatia. PLUS, the muslim-dominant Kosovars and Bosniaks never demanded separation under Tito's regime; only as a consequence of Milosevic's neglect of ethinc Albanians and Muslims, and firing them from state jobs, destroying Albanian schools etc., did the separatism among Muslims in the Balkan peninsula mount. It was completely the fault of the Serbs, and their neglect of nations other than the Serbians existing under Yugoslavia.

Or Chechnya. and so on and so forth. Do you really think you can sweep that under the rug with some rhetoric about allowing Jews to live?

The bombings and threats of violence that follow every incident Muslim find offensive should not be talked about?

Since I am openly an atheist, I can never go back to my country of birth. Neither can the many refugees of all kinds. But **** us. What's important is Western Muslims living in a free culture pretending their minority opinion somehow carries more weight than the other Muslims.

That is the Islam I'm complaining about. Not your kind of Islam, nor the Islam that once existed. Your faith that somehow god will fix everything means nothing to me. Clearly god is perfectly comfortable having a bad version of Islam across much of the Muslim domain for many decades. It is in fact a very real threat to modern ideals.
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See my above post, pretty much addresses your point here. It is unfortunate that you can never return to your old country, simply due to your faith. Hopefully this "Arab Spring" occurring over the past 12 months is a sign of things to come. Maybe it isn't, I dunno. What I do know is that I need to look at my faith holistically, and look at all of the good that it has done for humanity, and all of the bad things that have been done in its name, particularly occurring over the past 40 years, spearheaded by corrupt arab dictators. Again, it comes down to what Stoked said. Its not the faith that is harming the social progress, its the many corrupt theocracies who unfortunately have interpretations of my faith that aren't conducive with social progress. So hell, either way, there will always be thousands of interpretations of my faith, some of which will be used for evil doings. This is not unique to Islam. However, looking at the good things that it has done for others, and looking at all of the things it has done for me when I have seemed faith the most, I can't help but revolving much of my life around my faith. I respect the fact that you have left it, and I respect that you seem to be quite well off in the absence of a faith you had for a great portion of your life; I ask for equal respect from your behalf as well. Surely, I haven't turned out TOO badly from a "religion that is threatening to so many of our modern ideals", after all :)
 
SiroMar said:
So you honestly think you somehow "disproved" my point about Islam's destabilizing effect by pointing out an instance of goodwill? If this conversation is about my excessive use of hyperbole, then yes, you win. You've yet to address my point. Through out the Muslim world, you have oppression of women and minorities, savage and barbaric Sharia laws, terrorism and social backwardness. It is all justified in the name of Islam. That is THEIR interpretation of Islam. Why do you keep talking about history? How many times do I need to acknowledge Muslim contributions to humanity before you stop hiding behind history and respond to what I'm saying!

Islam spreads in India, Muslims demand separation, and a bitter conflict is created. Same situation is Serbia. Or Chechnya. and so on and so forth. Do you really think you can sweep that under the rug with some rhetoric about allowing Jews to live?

The bombings and threats of violence that follow every incident Muslim find offensive should not be talked about?

Since I am openly an atheist, I can never go back to my country of birth. Neither can the many refugees of all kinds. But **** us. What's important is Western Muslims living in a free culture pretending their minority opinion somehow carries more weight than the other Muslims.

That is the Islam I'm complaining about. Not your kind of Islam, nor the Islam that once existed. Your faith that somehow god will fix everything means nothing to me. Clearly god is perfectly comfortable having a bad version of Islam across much of the Muslim domain for many decades. It is in fact a very real threat to modern ideals.
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The people suffering in Muslim countries are doing so from a lack of Islam, not because of Islam.
 
The Black Swordsman said:
The people suffering in Muslim countries are doing so from a lack of Islam, not because of Islam.
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WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH. So you're telling me that when Christian's get killed in Muslim countries because they aren't Islamic, it's their fault for not being Islamic? Well alright, I guess that sounds reasonable to me.
 
Hantlers said:
WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH. So you're telling me that when Christian's get killed in Muslim countries because they aren't Islamic, it's their fault for not being Islamic? Well alright, I guess that sounds reasonable to me.
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Tell me where it says in the Qur'an to kill Christians? Hindu's? Atheists? Polytheists? People who leave Islam? Gays?

I can tell you where it says that in the Bible.
 
Dalamon, I think despite my harsh tone earlier, we do agree on most issues. But you must try to understand my general problem with religion, and Islam in particular. We've talked about it before, and it would take a bit long to elaborate at any length. I also touched on it in my debate with AtheistPreacher. But the problem with religion is precisely the fact you can interpret it in any way you wish.

Do you think the leaders of Al Qaeda know less about Islam than you? They are very well versed in Islamic theology, history, philosophy and all other aspects. They can justify their position from the Quran and tradition just as well as you can. Additionally, the religious cannot be persuaded by logic or reason (unless it fits with their religious view). Bin Laden will think his view of Islam is the most pure. He would argue that your view is the unfortunate twisting of the world of Allah. How can you think something with such vague and transient philosophy can really be the work of an entity as incredible as the one you claim?

That is why Islam scares me. There is no predicting what may happen. Maybe your version of Islam will prevail, and the growing Muslim population will continue humanity's current path toward a better society. But it is likely that the backward interpretation will win out. Just as it is likely that the Arab Spring will actually result in radical Muslims taking over and making the situation worse. With the full blessing of the public.

And you can go to a believer and try to convince him that, say, covering a woman from head to toe is not in the spirit of Islam. You'll throw verses, Hadiths, and scholarly interpretations at one another, and you may come out on top. But in reality, we are perfectly capable of deciding what is good and what is bad on our own. The whole process of apologetics and interpretation is redundant. You cannot simply go to a Muslim and say "you shouldn't have a say on whether a woman covers her face in public, regardless of what your Quran says". You have to win them over to your interpretation before you proceed with secular logic.

For some reason, I feel certain kinship to you. You are an intelligent young Muslim. But more importantly, you're a good person. Religion is wasted on good people.

Thank you for the conversation. I enjoyed it as always. :)
 
SiroMar said:
Dalamon, I think despite my harsh tone earlier, we do agree on most issues. But you must try to understand my general problem with religion, and Islam in particular. We've talked about it before, and it would take a bit long to elaborate at any length. I also touched on it in my debate with AtheistPreacher. But the problem with religion is precisely the fact you can interpret it in any way you wish.

Do you think the leaders of Al Qaeda know less about Islam than you? They are very well versed in Islamic theology, history, philosophy and all other aspects. They can justify their position from the Quran and tradition just as well as you can. Additionally, the religious cannot be persuaded by logic or reason (unless it fits with their religious view). Bin Laden will think his view of Islam is the most pure. He would argue that your view is the unfortunate twisting of the world of Allah. How can you think something with such vague and transient philosophy can really be the work of an entity as incredible as the one you claim?

That is why Islam scares me. There is no predicting what may happen. Maybe your version of Islam will prevail, and the growing Muslim population will continue humanity's current path toward a better society. But it is likely that the backward interpretation will win out. Just as it is likely that the Arab Spring will actually result in radical Muslims taking over and making the situation worse. With the full blessing of the public.

And you can go to a believer and try to convince him that, say, covering a woman from head to toe is not in the spirit of Islam. You'll throw verses, Hadiths, and scholarly interpretations at one another, and you may come out on top. But in reality, we are perfectly capable of deciding what is good and what is bad on our own. The whole process of apologetics and interpretation is redundant. You cannot simply go to a Muslim and say "you shouldn't have a say on whether a woman covers her face in public, regardless of what your Quran says". You have to win them over to your interpretation before you proceed with secular logic.

For some reason, I feel certain kinship to you. You are an intelligent young Muslim. But more importantly, you're a good person. Religion is wasted on good people.

Thank you for the conversation. I enjoyed it as always. :)
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Yes, I remember you making this point to me last time as well. Unfortunately, it's just one of those tiny quirks about religion that I will never quite understand, or know what to do about them. I completely see where you're coming from, though. You yourself are certainly intelligent to say the least, and a person that I hold deep respect for. Thank you for the compliments :) And the conversation as well. But really, same applies to you (except for the Muslim part- haha)
 
PPS: I Have noticed that you have edited much of your original post- nice try. I still have most of it quoted.
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Cool story bra. But I had all my edits done within minutes of my post. And the edits were done to insert the Jim Carey pic and a few spelling errors. I was merely being rational. Trust me, your garbage wouldn't "intimidate" me into editing my post. That's not rational.

I still don't see how Muslims are rational. In fact, they're probably the least rational people on the face of the earth. Just look at how garbage most of the ME/N. Africa is. Most Islamic countries are complete crapholes of countries. No rights for women, widespread violence, poverty, etc.

Worshiping some cube while calling for "death to the Great Satan" isn't exactly rational.

Also, in response to the bolded part of your message, I am willing to place a hefty wager that more people have died due to Christian intolerance of other faiths, than Islamic intolerance to other faiths.
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Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.

I am contemplating putting that as my sig.
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Do whatever you wish. It's a free message board. That's rational. Unlike most Islamic countries.

Once again, I repeat:

I say, the USA needs to cut off all handouts to these dumbass Islamic ME countries and let them (rationally) tear each other apart. I grow weary of our tax dollars being wasted by the billions to make irrational punkasses like Karzai rich. And then these punks trash talk us while stretching out their hands waiting for handouts.

Eventually, babies need to graduate from diapers to pampers. Let Afghanistan take dumps in its own diapers and stink up the place. Let them and about 5 other ME countries sink or swim on their own. USA cannot police, fund, build, educate, etc every single ME country.
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I grow tired of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc all crying for handouts and essentially blackmailing us. If we don't meet x demands, someone scary will overrun their country, kill many, threaten Israel, shutdown the oil, and/or obtain a Nuke to use against us. It's not rational and it's costing us billions.

Time to graduate from your diapers and move onto Pampers. If Pakistan fails, let it. If punkass Karzai cannot survive without US gov handouts, then let him fail and be beheaded by his Taliban brothers. If Iraq cannot unify, then let it fail and be broken up into 3 different countries (one for the Sunnis, one for the Kurds, and one for the Shiites). Let these rational ME countries crap their own pants for a while (without having us rush over to wipe their asses).

Ah yes, and don't even get me started on how rational it is that Muslims kill each other. As if god would really favor Sunnis over the Shiites... sigh... And would justify killing each other... Genius.... So rational...

In order for these pathetic countries to grow,they need to be let alone to fail. Great Britain kept them afloat... And now we have... Eventually, they gotta grow up!

Perhaps if they were made to fail or succeed by their own merit, they would become more rational?

PS Just to let you know... I posted this at 9:37... And have edited it... It's now 9:42... Any further edits will be rationally made and I will rationally post their times so that you know. Ok? Because your posting intimidated me so much so I had to make my post more PC... Or something.. Or whatever you were inferring...
 
dalamon said:
You're definitely exaggerating this. If it was bad as you say it is, how do you even explain the mere existence of different groups of faiths other than Islam existing throughout the Arabian peninsula, as well as Turkey, and the Muslim-dominant balkan countries?

I am fully aware that it wasn't as friendly as it was on paper, but it was definitely more progressive than other nations of its time.

https://www.fravahr.org/spip.php?article31
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I'm not saying it was bad or good. My point is there was nothing progressive about what the Ottomans did with/for Jews as revisionist Western apologists want us to believe. Ottomans followed empire building 101 as had been practiced for a couple thousand years already. Stable, expanding, prosperous empires have the ability to assume populations willing to submit as second class citizens, pay tribute, and provide children to become soldiers. It's beneficial to the empire to give refugees some land tracts you're not using and let them provide wealth and children for your military campaigns while you try to do what Islam set out to do--subdue the world.

The Christianity using empire builders weren't stable enough to allow minority populaces because they have a tendency of rebelling. Islam had already crushed the pagans and apostates through centuries earlier campaigns so allowing Jews and Christians as second class citizens wasn't a big deal. The polytheists weren't so lucky under "religiously tolerant" Islam though. Neither were the Armenians who were forced into exile as would be expected from a declining empire.
 
The Thriller said:
I don't see how a religion that denies women (any) rights, has them marry their rapists, beheads others, celebrates two towers crashing down with thousands of innocents dying, and is ultimately just completely intolerant of anything else can be considered "rational."

(Some) Muslims might be rational.

Islam itself? Completely irrational, violent, and probably does much more harm than good. How many more folks need to perish because of Islam's intolerance and demands to kill infidels before we can admit that Islam is pretty jacked up? How many more women need to be raped (and then forced into marriage with that person)? Where were all those Muslims protesting Osama Bin Laden? Was there any peep from (any) Muslim when that school of little kids was attacked?

I keep hearing how Muslims are rational and tolerant. Yet... Whenever Americans, Jews, or Christians are blown away, I never see any "protest." If anything, I see an increase in cheering, more American flags being burned, and shouts of how great Allah is.

Also, gotta love Mohammad. Man of God who beheaded thousands for not converting.... Definitely sounds rational... Oh, and your salvation is dependent upon praying and touching some meteorite protecting by a black cube?

Yeahhh... Definitely makes sense... Completely rational...

image11.jpg


I say, the USA needs to cut off all handouts to these dumbass Islamic ME countries and let them (rationally) tear each other apart. I grow weary of our tax dollars being wasted by the billions to make irrational punkasses like Karzai rich. And then these punks trash talk us while stretching out their hands waiting for handouts.

Eventually, babies need to graduate from diapers to pampers. Let Afghanistan take dumps in its own diapers and stink up the place. Let them and about 5 other ME countries sink or swim on their own. USA cannot police, fund, build, educate, etc every single ME country.
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Wow... Where to begin on this train wreck? Have you ever read the Qur'an? Ever taken any religion classes? Ever read a book about Islam? No? Shocking. What is the most interesting thing about your rant here, to me, is the fact that you're a Mormon and have long had to deal with idiots from all points of the globe acting exactly the same way you are. All one needs to do is go read some of the Spurs boards to see what I'm talking about: Joseph Smith using a magic rock inside of a hat. All of our 14 wives. Warren Jeffs as our leader. BoM inaccuracies. Blacks and the priesthood. Etc., etc., etc. Way to be tolerant and educated, Thriller -- you're a great ambassador for Utah and Mormons the world over.

The Thriller said:
Cool story bra. But I had all my edits done within minutes of my post. And the edits were done to insert the Jim Carey pic and a few spelling errors. I was merely being rational. Trust me, your garbage wouldn't "intimidate" me into editing my post. That's not rational.

I still don't see how Muslims are rational. In fact, they're probably the least rational people on the face of the earth. Just look at how garbage most of the ME/N. Africa is. Most Islamic countries are complete crapholes of countries. No rights for women, widespread violence, poverty, etc.

Worshiping some cube while calling for "death to the Great Satan" isn't exactly rational.



Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.



Do whatever you wish. It's a free message board. That's rational. Unlike most Islamic countries.

Once again, I repeat:



I grow tired of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc all crying for handouts and essentially blackmailing us. If we don't meet x demands, someone scary will overrun their country, kill many, threaten Israel, shutdown the oil, and/or obtain a Nuke to use against us. It's not rational and it's costing us billions.

Time to graduate from your diapers and move onto Pampers. If Pakistan fails, let it. If punkass Karzai cannot survive without US gov handouts, then let him fail and be beheaded by his Taliban brothers. If Iraq cannot unify, then let it fail and be broken up into 3 different countries (one for the Sunnis, one for the Kurds, and one for the Shiites). Let these rational ME countries crap their own pants for a while (without having us rush over to wipe their asses).

Ah yes, and don't even get me started on how rational it is that Muslims kill each other. As if god would really favor Sunnis over the Shiites... sigh... And would justify killing each other... Genius.... So rational...

In order for these pathetic countries to grow,they need to be let alone to fail. Great Britain kept them afloat... And now we have... Eventually, they gotta grow up!

Perhaps if they were made to fail or succeed by their own merit, they would become more rational?

PS Just to let you know... I posted this at 9:37... And have edited it... It's now 9:42... Any further edits will be rationally made and I will rationally post their times so that you know. Ok? Because your posting intimidated me so much so I had to make my post more PC... Or something.. Or whatever you were inferring...
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Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.

I don't see how a religion that denies women (any) rights, has them marry their rapists, beheads others, celebrates two towers crashing down with thousands of innocents dying, and is ultimately just completely intolerant of anything else can be considered "rational."

Islam itself? Completely irrational, violent, and probably does much more harm than good.

Whenever Americans, Jews, or Christians are blown away, I never see any "protest." If anything, I see an increase in cheering, more American flags being burned, and shouts of how great Allah is.

Oh, and your salvation is dependent upon praying and touching some meteorite protecting by a black cube?

I still don't see how Muslims are rational. In fact, they're probably the least rational people on the face of the earth.

That's rational. Unlike most Islamic countries.
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You're a walking parody. Please, shut the F up.

Regards,

TroutBum
 
TroutBum said:
https://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=20...mple-experience-with-readers&s_cid=featured-2

This made me think of Thriller, and what a dick face he is.
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OK, kids. Every generation has to learn the lessons of life all over again, for themselves. That's what being oh say 19 is all about.

I watched a movie last night, twice. Some 1952 era country/blues singer named gosh I forget, dreaming in the back seat of a cadillac on New Years Eve, about the show he never did, before falling over dead from alcohol and heroine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3NuaJTmiUc

Nice little routine about the way things go in life, starting out with "Hey Good Lookin", ending with something about some "Cheatin' Heart", and a big sermon about Jesus and how a man with broken dreams just has a real hard time believing in God, and praying for mercy.

Religions, brand new, are like perky chics with all the right curves and wiggles. But life just wears on them like it does on all of us, and before long they're the ramblings of drunks on the street a 3 am, just dreaming of glory.

To the point, I've seen accounts of Islamic terrorists who in private life are hard drinkers, womanizers, gamblers, and Western-backed agitators just doing their best to justify another war. The rhetoric is western, even. Ideological, not religious.

I wonder how most ordinary Islam believers view them. I wouldn't imagine they are very good examples of their faith.

And it does take a while for any really devoted believer to begin to see the problems with their idols.

That's what being an old man is all about.
 
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TroutBum said:
Wow... Where to begin on this train wreck? Have you ever read the Qur'an? Ever taken any religion classes? Ever read a book about Islam? No? Shocking. What is the most interesting thing about your rant here, to me, is the fact that you're a Mormon and have long had to deal with idiots from all points of the globe acting exactly the same way you are. All one needs to do is go read some of the Spurs boards to see what I'm talking about: Joseph Smith using a magic rock inside of a hat. All of our 14 wives. Warren Jeffs as our leader. BoM inaccuracies. Blacks and the priesthood. Etc., etc., etc. Way to be tolerant and educated, Thriller -- you're a great ambassador for Utah and Mormons the world over.




Cool story bra. When you can't rely on actual data you can always rely on anecdotal data.



You're a walking parody. Please, shut the F up.

Regards,

TroutBum
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to the lengths you have trying to incite a religious/political/sexuality war on Jazzfanz.

*Edit* Multi-quote fail. I meant The Pill not Trout, sorry.
 
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franklin said:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to the lengths you have trying to incite a religious/political/sexuality war on Jazzfanz.

*Edit* Multi-quote fail. I meant The Pill not Trout, sorry.
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It's OK frank, he wouldn't have responded anyway. He has a tendency to do that, you know. Has his butt hole reamed and then he'll duck out for a few days, only to come back just as stupid as ever while conveniently forgetting the topic in which he was owned.
 
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