Will Millsap or Big Al come off the Bench at the Start of the Season?

[Stifle Tower]

Well, I'm not so sure we wouldn't be better starting the big lineup than Marvin. That's a separate issue. But realistically, MW wasn't brought over to come off the bench.

Why not? He came off the bench for Atlanta?
Me thinks Corbin - or KOC - needs to have a chat with Paul or Derrick to explain that the situation will only be for one more season, or maybe 1/2 if KOC can trade Jefferson at the deadline. The "big lineup" was a concept that was tried in the spring of 2011. And then it took another year before Corbin played it again. I don't see Millsap at SF as a viable alternative. I think it likely that Jefferson and Millsap start with Favors again coming off the bench. Or maybe if Paul gets his desired extension, he'll be less worried about being a starter.

As bad as Sloan was with his rotations, he was always able to keep some peace with Harpring and AK over starting vs. coming off the bench. Just make Paul captain of the team and tell him he'll still play 30+ mins, but he's needed to be the veteran leader and main scorer for the 2nd unit.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Got sour grapes?

Nope, it's called paying attention.

You should get some.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Give me a break. Know the system? If Al is starting, it's stand around and jackpot in the corner on offense, and don't get beat on defense, because Al won't be there to back you up.

I will give you a break--for incorrectly ignoring that Sloan instituted a veteran bias that Corbin has continued somewhat. Despite Josh Howard being a former starter and All-Star (and despite Raja Bell having a rather underwhelming 2010-2011 year as starting SG with <41% FGM), it was Howard who rode the bench until Bell's suckiness became so blatantly obvious that Corbin had no choice but to cut his time.

In all seriousness, these NBA systems aren't that different. If he can't pick up the offense over the summer, training camp, pre-season games....then KOC just got screwed in this trade.

Marvin can pick up the offense. But this is the Utah Jazz, where seniority rules. In terms of the beginning-of-the-season starting lineup, the issue is whether Favors' tenure on the team outweighs Marvin Williams' seven-year career experience, because Millsap can slide to the 3 and do OK. Is this optimal? No. Is this the Jazz way? Historically, yes.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Why not? He came off the bench for Atlanta?
Me thinks Corbin - or KOC - needs to have a chat with Paul or Derrick to explain that the situation will only be for one more season, or maybe 1/2 if KOC can trade Jefferson at the deadline. The "big lineup" was a concept that was tried in the spring of 2011. And then it took another year before Corbin played it again. I don't see Millsap at SF as a viable alternative. I think it likely that Jefferson and Millsap start with Favors again coming off the bench. Or maybe if Paul gets his desired extension, he'll be less worried about being a starter.

As bad as Sloan was with his rotations, he was always able to keep some peace with Harpring and AK over starting vs. coming off the bench. Just make Paul captain of the team and tell him he'll still play 30+ mins, but he's needed to be the veteran leader and main scorer for the 2nd unit.

Why does anyone have to have a chat with anyone?

As has been stated previously, the only chat that has to be held is, "Millsap, you're coming off the bench." Or not. "Favors, you're coming off the bench." Or not.

What would be optimal is a performance-based approach, where the best combinations (and projected combinations) play most of the minutes, with selective experimentation (such as Al-Favors-Millsap vs. Al-Favors-Marvin vs. Favors-Millsap-Marvin), but that would really eliminate the legacy of the from-the-hip substitution patterns that Sloan immortalized for so many years. Makes too much sense to do it, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Brown Notes]

I will give you a break--for incorrectly ignoring that Sloan instituted a veteran bias that Corbin has continued somewhat. Despite Josh Howard being a former starter and All-Star (and despite Raja Bell having a rather underwhelming 2010-2011 year as starting SG with <41% FGM), it was Howard who rode the bench until Bell's suckiness became so blatantly obvious that Corbin had no choice but to cut his time.

Marvin can pick up the offense. But this is the Utah Jazz, where seniority rules. In terms of the beginning-of-the-season starting lineup, the issue is whether Favors' tenure on the team outweighs Marvin Williams' seven-year career experience, because Millsap can slide to the 3 and do OK. Is this optimal? No. Is this the Jazz way? Historically, yes.

Wasn't the rule last year when Favors started to open the season.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Wasn't the rule last year when Favors started to open the season.

But Favors had already been on the team.

Rarely do players sweep in and start on the Jazz. (I don't recall if Fisher did, but that was a wrong move from the get-go, and Brewer was a very young victim of the veteran bias).

Mo will start because he was already on the team (and because he's clearly the best PG).

 

[cctrackstar]

Oh how I wish one of the two would be open to a sixth man type role. The answer was obvious before the Jazz picked up Marvin Williams, just start Millsap at the 3. Now that the Jazz have a legit younger veteran in Marvin, the question becomes who starts at the 3, Marvin or Millsap. We won't know the answer to this until we see what Marvin can do in a set offence, which supposedly he's going to be better in.

The good news is that Marvin (i believe) will be more open to a sixth man role as long as he is contributing to the team. I understand that that is how his personality is, though that may just be a 'Raja' mask.

(definition: 'Raja Mask': wherein a professional basketball player says the things that he believes will put him in the best light even though his true feelings and intentions are completely opposite to what he is portraying. EX: 'I am going to be a professional')

 

[sgjazzfan]

But Favors had already been on the team.

Rarely do players sweep in and start on the Jazz. (I don't recall if Fisher did, but that was a wrong move from the get-go, and Brewer was a very young victim of the veteran bias).

Mo will start because he was already on the team (and because he's clearly the best PG).

Didn't Harris come in and start? I think AJ did too. I'm sure Boozer did when he was signed. What about Okur? I don't remember if Korver started right away or not, but he played a lot when he first got here. Mo will start because he is the best point guard (who just happened to be on the team in the past, him being on the team previously has nothing to do with him starting, earl has played here for 2 years, Mo only played for 1, so earl should start, right?).

I don't think there veteran bias has much at all to do with time in the organization. Marvin Williams has a much greater tenure in the NBA than Favors. I think KOC got Williams to start, and I think he will from the beginning of the season. Howard was coming off an injury from last year and this had a lot to do with him not getting a lot of time to start the season (and he could barely hit the rim, much less make a shot, so he wasn't giving himself a strong argument to take minutes away from Bell). It was really Burks that was hurt more by Bell's playing time than Howard.

 

[ema]

I said no, But I think based on performances Ty may try Millsap coming off the bench some games or some periods. And also I believe he has plans to use the big three line up for some periods. Of course this is current if we won't trade a big.

 

[Former Member]

There are a couple of factors to consider. I'm absolutely convinced that we are going to start Favors this year.

A) If Millsap and Jefferson are still on the team - One of them comes off the bench. I think it would be Millsap to be honest.

B) Millsap or Jefferson gets traded - One of them obviously not coming off the bench because they are not here. I do not know why, but I have a hunch that Millsap will be traded before Big Al.

I would predict these starters (With our current roster)

Mo
Hayward
Marvin
Favors
Al

 

[bigmike]

I see Paul as our 6th man. Which I'm fine with.

Personally, I think Favors at the 4 with Al at the 5 is our best, most balanced starting frontcourt with Paul still getting his 30 mins off the bench.

 

[bjunior]

If Favors is not a starter next season, than this organization **** badly.

He is our best player and can be an all-star. In order to keep him in the future, he's got to start nest season.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Didn't Harris come in and start? I think AJ did too. I'm sure Boozer did when he was signed. What about Okur? I don't remember if Korver started right away or not, but he played a lot when he first got here. Mo will start because he is the best point guard (who just happened to be on the team in the past, him being on the team previously has nothing to do with him starting, earl has played here for 2 years, Mo only played for 1, so earl should start, right?).,

I don't think there veteran bias has much at all to do with time in the organization. Marvin Williams has a much greater tenure in the NBA than Favors. I think KOC got Williams to start, and I think he will from the beginning of the season. Howard was coming off an injury from last year and this had a lot to do with him not getting a lot of time to start the season (and he could barely hit the rim, much less make a shot, so he wasn't giving himself a strong argument to take minutes away from Bell). It was really Burks that was hurt more by Bell's playing time than Howard.

Okur didn't start, if I recall Okur came into training camp out of shape and Sloan made him come off the bench.

 

[gregbroncs]

Remember, we tried starting Favors at the beginning of last season, only to find he wasn't quite ready.

Hopefully he's ready this season, and Millsap still is okay with doing what Coach wants.

I disagreed with the decision to put him back on the bench then and still do. Last year should have been about winning as much as possible while playing the young guys as much as possible.

I also believe Favors was ready to start and was not given enough of an opportunity to fit into the role of starter.

 

[green]

I disagreed with the decision to put him back on the bench then and still do. Last year should have been about winning as much as possible while playing the young guys as much as possible.

I also believe Favors was ready to start and was not given enough of an opportunity to fit into the role of starter.

I agree. You can't start a guy and then pull him two seconds later...especially when you do what you did with Howard, Bell, and Watson. Last year was nothing short of a horrible year for Corbin.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Oh how I wish one of the two would be open to a sixth man type role. The answer was obvious before the Jazz picked up Marvin Williams, just start Millsap at the 3. Now that the Jazz have a legit younger veteran in Marvin, the question becomes who starts at the 3, Marvin or Millsap. We won't know the answer to this until we see what Marvin can do in a set offence, which supposedly he's going to be better in.

What's this "open" stuff? Last time I checked, the coach--not the players--decided who's "open" to what.

I think that many JazzFanz are overstating the need to appease the players. While it is valuable to keep everyone happy, the coach is completely justified in putting out whatever combo is best (not that Sloan did that either).

The good news is that Marvin (i believe) will be more open to a sixth man role as long as he is contributing to the team. I understand that that is how his personality is, though that may just be a 'Raja' mask.

It's not about "open"; it's about what combo is most effective. A glance at a few games toward the end of last year shows that Marvin was really good as a starter sometimes and really irrelevant at other times. Marvin's recent record doesn't fully suggest that he's a starter (yet), although I think he will be. Between the veteran bias (better stated as "tenure bias" on the Jazz) and the uncertainty over Marvin's current performance, I see Al-Favors-Millsap more likely to begin the season, unless Marvin wows people fast in pre-season.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Didn't Harris come in and start? I think AJ did too. I'm sure Boozer did when he was signed. What about Okur? I don't remember if Korver started right away or not, but he played a lot when he first got here. Mo will start because he is the best point guard (who just happened to be on the team in the past, him being on the team previously has nothing to do with him starting, earl has played here for 2 years, Mo only played for 1, so earl should start, right?).

The max or near-max players typically come in and start right away.

And just like Harris came in and started right away because he was perceived as the best PG by far (I'm not sure that that was always the case vs. a healthy Watson and Tinsley) and was getting paid far more FWIW.

What we're talking about here is competition for starting slots on the front line.

I don't think there veteran bias has much at all to do with time in the organization. Marvin Williams has a much greater tenure in the NBA than Favors. I think KOC got Williams to start, and I think he will from the beginning of the season. Howard was coming off an injury from last year and this had a lot to do with him not getting a lot of time to start the season (and he could barely hit the rim, much less make a shot, so he wasn't giving himself a strong argument to take minutes away from Bell). It was really Burks that was hurt more by Bell's playing time than Howard.

KOC is the general manager; not the coach. I highly doubt that KOC said "OK, Ty, I'm gonna trade for Marvin, but only if you start him right away." GMs wouldn't do that, and KOC especially wouldn't do that; neither would Greg Miller.

I agree that Marvin could easily evolve into the clear starter at the 3, and I agree that KOC and the Jazz took a chance on him because--as a 2nd overall draft pick with great length and physique--he has more potential then he was showing (or being used for). The bigger question is still who the other two frontcourt starters are by mid-season. Oh, how I hope that it's based on performance and matchups, not tenure. If Al were still doing his lazy / incapable PnR defense and help defense, I would bring him off the bench until he started putting forth more effort--even if it wasn't the best combination to start. But I would be pleasantly surprised if Corbin does that.

 

[Revolution 9]

If Favors is not a starter next season, than this organization **** badly.

He is our best player and can be an all-star. In order to keep him in the future, he's got to start nest season.

When you say organization you mean Corbin(and him alone) yes? He needs to make the call. If he brings Favors off the bench he doesn't get it.

The best line up is not with Sap, and Big Al together(even if both are talented, and useful). Use them at OUR WILL, and whoever doesn't like it should be shipped.

 

[Deleted member 848]

But Favors had already been on the team.

Rarely do players sweep in and start on the Jazz. (I don't recall if Fisher did, but that was a wrong move from the get-go, and Brewer was a very young victim of the veteran bias).

Mo will start because he was already on the team (and because he's clearly the best PG).

What?

Josh Howard?

 

[Brown Notes]

The max or near-max players typically come in and start right away.

And just like Harris came in and started right away because he was perceived as the best PG by far (I'm not sure that that was always the case vs. a healthy Watson and Tinsley) and was getting paid far more FWIW.

What we're talking about here is competition for starting slots on the front line.

KOC is the general manager; not the coach. I highly doubt that KOC said "OK, Ty, I'm gonna trade for Marvin, but only if you start him right away." GMs wouldn't do that, and KOC especially wouldn't do that; neither would Greg Miller.

I agree that Marvin could easily evolve into the clear starter at the 3, and I agree that KOC and the Jazz took a chance on him because--as a 2nd overall draft pick with great length and physique--he has more potential then he was showing (or being used for). The bigger question is still who the other two frontcourt starters are by mid-season. Oh, how I hope that it's based on performance and matchups, not tenure. If Al were still doing his lazy / incapable PnR defense and help defense, I would bring him off the bench until he started putting forth more effort--even if it wasn't the best combination to start. But I would be pleasantly surprised if Corbin does that.

You make some good points, I just disagree with the idea that there is some overriding culture affecting Corbin's decisions with his rotations. Last year was obviously largely a series of experiments with the one constant being Al Jefferson. That just won't continue IMO.