Whistleblower allegations against LDS Church

[Jazz Spazz]

After reading some of this thread, and skimming the rest I have one though/question at this point.

How much of this vast wealth attributed to the church is in real estate, meaning land and building related? Temples, churches, fields, farms, storehouses, office buildings for employees, camps, historical sites, ranches, etc.?

I legit wonder, and my hunch is that a good portion of this number people are so up in arms about is tied to this.

I could be 100% wrong, but with doing zero research into it, that's my guess.

 

[MVP]

But I disagree completely as to the donations. Donating to a charity is not at all like giving tips, to me. Tips are very closely related to payment for services rendered. Donating to a church or charity in order to help them achieve their non-business-related mission is very different.

Maybe when it comes to LDS church. Yet we have thousands of other churches preachers living luxury life style, flying business class and indulging into all pleasures just because of tax exemptions. Doubt it can be called non-business related missions...I am kind of with you when it comes to monks and monasteries for example... I could see them as worthy tax exemptions ... not super rich organizations or those fraudulent preachers in possessions of millions of dollars.
Some good reads.
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47675301

https://stories.avvo.com/nakedlaw/b...hy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html

 

[JazzGal]

Yeah, that was a bit strong.


That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I've been on both sides. When you believe, you believe. When you don't, you don't.

I don't disagree with JG, I just think her perspective is a lil tone-deaf to her mom's belief. Neither are wrong.

Don't know

I don't tell my mom she is wrong because she is doing as she believes with her money. I'm not sure where you got that impression. I am also entitled to have an opinion about it and express it on a message board.

 

[bigb]

Yes, obviously people have different experiences than you do. Here's one of mine. My mother made very little in her lifetime, and she has to live solely on her small social security income (and the charity of her children). But she pays 10% tithing (which is ridiculous since she has already paid tithing on her social security withholdings in the past), fast offerings, any money we give her, and every other thing the church asks of her because of the promise of future rewards. She is too afraid not to, especially as she is 82 years old and believes she will be meeting her maker soon. So this excessively wealthy church is making her life incredibly difficult to manage, and she constantly worries about money. So yeah, I do have a bit of a gripe about it.

As far as I know, nobody has definitively said anything about paying tithing on social security. Technically, she hadn’t paid tithing on all of her social security. Just the portion withheld from her paychecks. Her employer then matched that. I know people who don’t pay tithing on it and still consider themselves to be worthy recommend holders. I know people who pay tithing on 50% of their social security check since they already paid on the other half. Obviously there are people who pay on all of it. My parents have decided not to pay on it until they have received the amount they personally contributed over the years and then pay on all of it (though as a business owner, it could be viewed that he technically contributed virtually all of it).
The point of that tl;dnr is that paying tithing on social security is a choice. It’s a decision she makes. You may say she’s doing it out of fear, but I doubt she feels that way (but I’ve never met her, so maybe). The other things you say she makes are another issue entirely and you may have a valid gripe.


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[Archie Moses]

I don't tell my mom she is wrong because she is doing as she believes with her money. I'm not sure where you got that impression. I am also entitled to have an opinion about it and express it on a message board.

You are. I sent you a PM and again apologize for calling you ignorant.

Sometimes I say things before I think them through.

AM

 

[Gameface]

After reading some of this thread, and skimming the rest I have one though/question at this point.

How much of this vast wealth attributed to the church is in real estate, meaning land and building related? Temples, churches, fields, farms, storehouses, office buildings for employees, camps, historical sites, ranches, etc.?

I legit wonder, and my hunch is that a good portion of this number people are so up in arms about is tied to this.

I could be 100% wrong, but with doing zero research into it, that's my guess.

There is a single investment account containing $100,000,000,000.00. That is not the only account the church has and none of it is counting their real estate holdings.

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[colton]

There is a single investment account containing $100,000,000,000.00.

Allegedly, anyway. There was no evidence, just one guy who said so.

 

[JazzGal]

Allegedly, anyway. There was no evidence, just one guy who said so.

Albeit a guy who worked in the investment department.

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[gandalfe]

Churches aren't taxed in this country because of the concept that being a religion is a good thing ALL BY ITSELF. Not for what else you do, but just being a religion. (Altho voodoo gets the short end of the stick, AFAIK.)

I personally look at the myriad problems with both bad actors in various churches as well as official teachings that are harmful and think that's wrong, but that's why it is the way it is.

 

[Gameface]

Allegedly, anyway. There was no evidence, just one guy who said so.

Sure.

But I think it's important to understand the technical aspect of this issue.

It isn't that the LDS church has too much money. It isn't about the total assets of the church. It's a question as to what charity (or charitable use) is or isn't.

The argument in this case is that if the church amasses enough wealth to then put that money into an investment account that is earning money (wealth building additional wealth) is that specific pile of money still being used for charitable purposes or is it being used to generate wealth, separate from the church's charitable activities?

I think ultimately the money will NOT be taxed because you can't really effectively argue that just because it is being held for a future "charitable purpose" and not being used now, that it does fall under the tax exemption rules. I think church's get tons of room to move under the umbrella of charity.

 

[Gameface]

Besides, I know what the $100,000,000,000.00 is really for...

It's so that Mormons can build the colony ship Nauvoo.



For anyone not watching the excellent series "The Expanse" the Nauvoo is a massive colony ship built by the Mormons to escape oppressive restrictions on reproduction. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

 

[bigb]

Sure.

But I think it's important to understand the technical aspect of this issue.

It isn't that the LDS church has too much money. It isn't about the total assets of the church. It's a question as to what charity (or charitable use) is or isn't.

The argument in this case is that if the church amasses enough wealth to then put that money into an investment account that is earning money (wealth building additional wealth) is that specific pile of money still being used for charitable purposes or is it being used to generate wealth, separate from the church's charitable activities?

I think ultimately the money will NOT be taxed because you can't really effectively argue that just because it is being held for a future "charitable purpose" and not being used now, that it does fall under the tax exemption rules. I think church's get tons of room to move under the umbrella of charity.

I’m as far from an expert as there is, but if the church uses the interest (profit) from the account on charitable purposes (sending/giving aid in times of need, paying for missionaries who can’t afford it, the perpetual education fund, etc.) would that be enough for all of it to be tax exempt?
I know pretty much nothing about this.


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[colton]

Besides, I know what the $100,000,000,000.00 is really for...

It's so that Mormons can build the colony ship Nauvoo.



For anyone not watching the excellent series "The Expanse" the Nauvoo is a massive colony ship built by the Mormons to escape oppressive restrictions on reproduction. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

Sounds cool! I'll have to check it out. And an 8.5 rating on imdb is nothing to scoff at.

 

[fishonjazz]

Besides, I know what the $100,000,000,000.00 is really for...

It's so that Mormons can build the colony ship Nauvoo.



For anyone not watching the excellent series "The Expanse" the Nauvoo is a massive colony ship built by the Mormons to escape oppressive restrictions on reproduction. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

I just googled this. Gonna go on my list of possible future shows to watch.

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[colton]

Here's an excellent article. I found it very educational.

 

[MVP]

Churches aren't taxed in this country because of the concept that being a religion is a good thing ALL BY ITSELF. Not for what else you do, but just being a religion.

Wondering if Church of Satan is tax exempt as well?
nevermind - indeed it is

The Satanic Temple is a nontheistic religious group based in United States. The Temple is recognized as a church for the purposes of tax exemption, with chapters in 13 states and Canada.

 

[RJF]

Besides, I know what the $100,000,000,000.00 is really for...

It's so that Mormons can build the colony ship Nauvoo.



For anyone not watching the excellent series "The Expanse" the Nauvoo is a massive colony ship built by the Mormons to escape oppressive restrictions on reproduction. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

Is it's destination Kolob?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Here's an excellent article. I found it very educational.

Very strong article. Thanks for posting.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I do. I actually worked for the homeless shelter here in Utah.

As what? You certainly didn’t work in housing. Otherwise you’d know first hand that HUD (a GOVERNMENT agency) grants subsidized housing vouchers to those who qualify as chronically homeless.

So what do they do? They pay deposit, and then ****ing rent.

Working at the shelter obviously gave you zero insights about it, so please stuff a sock in it.


Boohoo

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

Yes, obviously people have different experiences than you do. Here's one of mine. My mother made very little in her lifetime, and she has to live solely on her small social security income (and the charity of her children). But she pays 10% tithing (which is ridiculous since she has already paid tithing on her social security withholdings in the past), fast offerings, any money we give her, and every other thing the church asks of her because of the promise of future rewards. She is too afraid not to, especially as she is 82 years old and believes she will be meeting her maker soon. So this excessively wealthy church is making her life incredibly difficult to manage, and she constantly worries about money. So yeah, I do have a bit of a gripe about it.

The best part about tithing is that they overcharge. The law is based on Section 119 of the Doctrine and Covenants, and it asks for 10% of interest.

The Church interprets the word interest to mean “income”. The difference between these two calculations is significant, and would have been meaningful to your mom’s experience.