Whistleblower allegations against LDS Church

[Archie Moses]

Yes, obviously people have different experiences than you do. Here's one of mine. My mother made very little in her lifetime, and she has to live solely on her small social security income (and the charity of her children). But she pays 10% tithing (which is ridiculous since she has already paid tithing on her social security withholdings in the past), fast offerings, any money we give her, and every other thing the church asks of her because of the promise of future rewards. She is too afraid not to, especially as she is 82 years old and believes she will be meeting her maker soon. So this excessively wealthy church is making her life incredibly difficult to manage, and she constantly worries about money. So yeah, I do have a bit of a gripe about it.

To me, this isn't ridiculous but ignorant of you.

Your mom believes in the church and the framework.

You don't and that's why it's ignorant.

 

[Archie Moses]

And you were also taught to give 10%.
I think her point is simply for the church to practice what they preach on that regard.
Btw I just want to make it clear that I'm a fan of the church

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

I get it, man. Maybe I'm being too much of the devil's advocate.

When I was a member, I was never pressured to pay tithing. When I did, I felt good about it.

It would be easy for me to be angry about it but I'm just not. I felt good about it. I trust my money never went to bad, even if it's a savings account.

 

[MVP]

Taxed on donations? Or taxed on what, specifically?

My understanding is that all 50 states exempt churches from property taxes. You make this huge building for just particular type of people - like a club if you want to name it - you should be taxed property taxes. It is not public. Not for everybody. Why should it be tax exempt?
As far as donations - they can be looked at the same as tips. If waiters are taxed on their tips ( it is donation at the end, you are not obligated to tip a waiter and you can tip whatever you want) then why Churches are not taxed on donations? It is still their income and income should be taxed.

 

[Zombie]

To me, this isn't ridiculous but ignorant of you.

Your mom believes in the church and the framework.

You don't and that's why it's ignorant.

It's ok for people to have a different perspective than believers, and draw different conclusions than they do over the benefits of paying dues to that church without being ignorant. I would suggest you maybe shouldn't make so many assumptions about peoples personal experiences.

 

[Archie Moses]

You're right man, it's just not possible to be critical of any organization unless you either have personal financial failings yourself or have irrational hate towards them. You've really nailed it.

But yeah, go ahead and point out any time I've blamed my problems on someone else, or said anything angry or hateful towards the church.

I must be so wrong about this and you're the proof.

It's not an absolute, but I stand by what I said.

 

[Zombie]

I must be so wrong about this and you're the proof.

It's not an absolute, but I stand by what I said.

If you want to draw negative inferences about people you know nothing about over their criticism of an organization you're not even a member of, you do you buddy.

 

[Archie Moses]

It's ok for people to have a different perspective than believers, and draw different conclusions than they do over the benefits of paying dues to that church without being ignorant. I would suggest you maybe shouldn't make so many assumptions about peoples personal experiences.

And vise versa.

I love me some Jazzgal and I don't mean to be rude, but my perspective is - if you expect people to understand your perspective, you better be willing to understand theirs.

I just look at it like these people pay tithing because they believe. My opinion means ****. Your opinion means ****.

People's beliefs are sacred.

 

[Archie Moses]

If you want to draw negative inferences about people you know nothing about over their criticism of an organization you're not even a member of, you do you buddy.

I know nothing about you. I could be wrong 100%.

I still stand by what I said.

 

[Zombie]

And vise versa.

I love me some Jazzgal and I don't mean to be rude, but my perspective is - if you expect people to understand your perspective, you better be willing to understand theirs.

I just look at it like these people pay tithing because they believe. My opinion means ****. Your opinion means ****.

People's beliefs are sacred.

I'm sure she has a better perspective on her mother's beliefs and situation than you do. It's pretty condescending of you to call her or anyone ignorant over this.

 

[JazzGal]

I was a member of that church for 50 years. I'm well aware of the perspectives and personal experiences. No need to be condescending.

 

[Archie Moses]

I was a member of that church for 50 years. I'm well aware of the perspectives and personal experiences. No need to be condescending.

Yeah, my bad and I apologize.

 

[Archie Moses]

I'm sure she has a better perspective on her mother's beliefs and situation than you do. It's pretty condescending of you to call her or anyone ignorant over this.

Yeah, that was a bit strong.


That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I've been on both sides. When you believe, you believe. When you don't, you don't.

I don't disagree with JG, I just think her perspective is a lil tone-deaf to her mom's belief. Neither are wrong.

Don't know

 

[Zombie]

Yeah, that was a bit strong.


That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I've been on both sides. When you believe, you believe. When you don't, you don't.

I don't disagree with JG, I just think her perspective is a lil tone-deaf to her mom's belief. Neither are wrong.

Don't know

Yeah I mean I don't disagree with this. I'm not trying to tell any believers how they should feel about any of this.

 

[MVP]

That said, I know non-believers tend to judge or dictate how believers should feel or do.

People who pay tithing are believers and are committed to a principal because they believe in it. I don't think non-believers get to tell them it's wrong.

I have no issue with tithing. I have an issue with big organization using land and building properties on it and not paying property taxes. Same as them using public services and not paying taxes. Lets say somebody breaks into church and steals something. Would church not call police? If they do and police comes in and does the job by investigating crime and eventually catching the robber and returning goods to Church - I have an issue with that as church did not pay to support police job via taxes - I did, and it is not fair. So, to make it fair, Churches should either pay taxes like everybody else or not receive any public services, or pay for the services on per use, hour, job, etc basis.

 

[Archie Moses]

I have no issue with tithing. I have an issue with big organization using land and building properties on it and not paying property taxes. Same as them using public services and not paying taxes. Lets say somebody breaks into church and steals something. Would church not call police? If they do and police comes in and does the job by investigating crime and eventually catching the robber and returning goods to Church - I have an issue with that as church did not pay to support police job via taxes - I did, and it is not fair. So, to make it fair, Churches should either pay taxes like everybody else or not receive any public services, or pay for the services on per use, hour, job, etc basis.

So is your issue with the church or the law?


If there were laws that would save me from taxes, trust me, I'd take advantage of it.


You would too.

 

[MVP]

So is your issue with the church or the law?


If there were laws that would save me from taxes, trust me, I'd take advantage of it.


You would to.

You are right, my issue is with the law. It is outdated and needs to be changed.

 

[Archie Moses]

You are right, my issue is with the law. It is outdated and needs to be changed.

I don't disagree.

 

[colton]

Yes, obviously people have different experiences than you do. Here's one of mine. My mother made very little in her lifetime, and she has to live solely on her small social security income (and the charity of her children). But she pays 10% tithing (which is ridiculous since she has already paid tithing on her social security withholdings in the past), fast offerings, any money we give her, and every other thing the church asks of her because of the promise of future rewards. She is too afraid not to, especially as she is 82 years old and believes she will be meeting her maker soon. So this excessively wealthy church is making her life incredibly difficult to manage, and she constantly worries about money. So yeah, I do have a bit of a gripe about it.

Really? I have never once in my life paid my tithing out of a sense of fear. I suspect your mom doesn't either, but of course I don't know her at all.

 

[colton]

My understanding is that all 50 states exempt churches from property taxes. You make this huge building for just particular type of people - like a club if you want to name it - you should be taxed property taxes. It is not public. Not for everybody. Why should it be tax exempt?
As far as donations - they can be looked at the same as tips. If waiters are taxed on their tips ( it is donation at the end, you are not obligated to tip a waiter and you can tip whatever you want) then why Churches are not taxed on donations? It is still their income and income should be taxed.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm sort of with you on the property taxes thing as long as you apply the same logic to all charities/similar entities. But I disagree completely as to the donations. Donating to a charity is not at all like giving tips, to me. Tips are very closely related to payment for services rendered. Donating to a church or charity in order to help them achieve their non-business-related mission is very different.

 

[Archie Moses]

Really? I have never once in my life paid my tithing out of a sense of fear. I suspect your mom doesn't either, but of course I don't know her at all.

This is a common fear tactic I hear or read a lot.

I was never pressured to pay tithing. I was always taught why I should and the blessings that came from it.

I always told my bishops I wasn't a full tithe payer and not one of them kept a temple recommend from me or made me feel bad - I told this to at least 10 dudes.


People make the church out to be so bad. I honestly don't get it.