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Ersan Ilyasova to sign with Jazz per Jordan Schultz

One Brow said:
Framer said, "headband guy driving on you is going to call you for a foul anyway", which to me was clear that the offensive player is calling the foul on the defender.

Taking a charge is an action, calling one is a different action.
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A charge is a violation... if there is no call there is no violation. So if there is no call then there is no charge... someone has to call it. So he is standing in front of a guy and falling down... that isn't taking a charge if he isn't calling it.
 
There is no instance in pickup ball where falling down is intimidating. If headband guy is calling ******** fouls you simply let him know you were straight up and make him feel dumb for calling it. If he continues to call ******** then you give him a real foul he can feel.
 
Less talk about charges, more talk about Ersan going for 35 tonight.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
There is no instance in pickup ball where falling down is intimidating. If headband guy is calling ******** fouls you simply let him know you were straight up and make him feel dumb for calling it. If he continues to call ******** then you give him a real foul he can feel.
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Nobody's falling down in pickup ball, and you aren't getting that call. However, cutting off the driver and taking tough contact is a legit pickup move as you generally aren't playing with ultra speedy or shifty dudes. Take the contact. If you do it a couple of times the guy will evidence frustration. You probably wouldn't play that way with your buddies though.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
So guys are taking the hit and falling down and everyone plays on? I still play a ton of pickup ball and everyone of the groups would laugh their *** off if someone tried to take a charge.

Its real simple... you hold your ground and wall off the driver by standing in front. If they are going up for a shot you move with them and contest the shot. Occasionally a guy will legitimately dump truck a guy. Almost always the offensive player will call themselves and give up the ball.
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Taking a charge means stopping a guy with the ball. If you find that amusing, ...

Handlogten's Heros said:
A charge is a violation... if there is no call there is no violation. So if there is no call then there is no charge... someone has to call it. So he is standing in front of a guy and falling down... that isn't taking a charge if he isn't calling it.
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"No call"? What sort of wimpy pick-up ball do you play? On our play ground back in the middle ages, it was "no blood, no foul" (a slight exaggeration). That's some kind of weird nominalism you have going on. Would you also say, "It's not a double dribble unless someone calls it" or "It's not a travel unless someone calls it"? How about if the ball goes through the hoop, but the score doesn't get incremented? Is it a missed shot unless the score goes up?
 
framer said:
Nobody's falling down in pickup ball, and you aren't getting that call. However, cutting off the driver and taking tough contact is a legit pickup move as you generally aren't playing with ultra speedy or shifty dudes. Take the contact. If you do it a couple of times the guy will evidence frustration. You probably wouldn't play that way with your buddies though.
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That's just holding your ground and playing good defense... when I hear taking a charge I think of it in the NBA sense... taking contact, falling over, and calling a foul.
 
One Brow said:
Taking a charge means stopping a guy with the ball. If you find that amusing, ...


"No call"? What sort of wimpy pick-up ball do you play? On our play ground back in the middle ages, it was "no blood, no foul" (a slight exaggeration). That's some kind of weird nominalism you have going on. Would you also say, "It's not a double dribble unless someone calls it" or "It's not a travel unless someone calls it"? How about if the ball goes through the hoop, but the score doesn't get incremented? Is it a missed shot unless the score goes up?
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Stopping the ball is stopping the ball. If I am playing with my friends and shut a guy down they don't say "way to take that charge". Every time someone cuts off a drive that's "taking a charge"... GTFO.

I would invite you to come play pickup ball with us and see if you still consider it wimpy... fouls are called... its basketball not rugby.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Stopping the ball is stopping the ball. If I am playing with my friends and shut a guy down they don't say "way to take that charge". Every time someone cuts off a drive that's "taking a charge"... GTFO.
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It's true that it's only a charge if you're stationary and the guy on offense is driving to the basket and drives into you, while there are other actions that count as "stopping the ball".

Handlogten's Heros said:
I would invite you to come play pickup ball with us and see if you still consider it wimpy... fouls are called... its basketball not rugby.
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Sorry, I'm too old and too fat now, not to mention in Illinois.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
That's just holding your ground and playing good defense... when I hear taking a charge I think of it in the NBA sense... taking contact, falling over, and calling a foul.
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So, since Ilyasova has never called a foul, he's never taken a charge?

I mean, I'm sure we agree that Ilyasova can perform the same action in the same way, and in some games it will be called a charge while in others it will be called a block or a no-foul. Does that change what the action is?
 
One Brow said:
So, since Ilyasova has never called a foul, he's never taken a charge?

I mean, I'm sure we agree that Ilyasova can perform the same action in the same way, and in some games it will be called a charge while in others it will be called a block or a no-foul. Does that change what the action is?
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I'm not discussing this further it's dumb.
 
I'm super confused that people don't know the difference between a charging violation and playing basic defense.
 
One Brow said:
Yeah, it's been pretty dumb since someone claimed taking a charge was not a basketball play. Glad you caught on.
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You don’t actually play... you likely never did as much as I have... I played this morning for two hours... zero charges taken or called. Plenty of guys took stationary contact from drivers. The charge is a violation... not an action... the drive is the action. If you don’t get it fine but I’m not gonna argue with a guy who played a few pickup games back in his schoolyard days.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Did you catch on that he’s saying it’s more acting because they only get called when people allow themselves to fall over?
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It’s not hard to understand but people would rather try and start side tangents and quibble with words. If they legislated out the charge where a guy jumps in front of someone and then just falls down the game would be better for it. It’s a dangerous play... you have guys landing on dudes and falling backwards into other players legs... it’s 80% acting.
 
Some charges are legit. The charge called on Ingles last night was perfectly appropriate. The defender clearly beat Joe to the spot. He should be rewarded with the ball.

On the other hand, in most cases secondary/help defenders should not be eligible to draw charges - when a ballhandler breaks down his primary defender and another defender steps in his path in time to draw a charge - that's lame. They need to get rid of that or carve out a larger "no charge" zone for those types of defenders.

They also need to look at defenders who draw charges after a ball handler makes his pass - e.g. the charge Royce had called on him last night. Royce was not out of control and had already made his pass - the contact made by the defender in that case was incidental to the play.
 
candrew said:
Some charges are legit. The charge called on Ingles last night was perfectly appropriate. The defender clearly beat Joe to the spot. He should be rewarded with the ball.

On the other hand, in most cases secondary/help defenders should not be eligible to draw charges - when a ballhandler breaks down his primary defender and another defender steps in his path in time to draw a charge - that's lame. They need to get rid of that or carve out a larger "no charge" zone for those types of defenders.

They also need to look at defenders who draw charges after a ball handler makes his pass - e.g. the charge Royce had called on him last night. Royce was not out of control and had already made his pass - the contact made by the defender in that case was incidental to the play.
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I don’t actually have a problem with any of those scenarios being called.

The point being made is that the violation should be the effort to dislodge, not the reaction to some contact being cause for the call. In other words, there should be calls made that aren’t (players that stand their ground but take no less - or arguably more - contact), and calls not made that are (allowing oneself to fall from incidental contact).

In any case, the rules being what they are, taking a charge is one of the most effective defensive methods in basketball. The problem is it relies both on essentially exaggerating the contact AND on the officials to call it in your favor, otherwise it is either a blocking foul or a 4 on 5 defensive situation. It seems to me like Jazz are generally not interested in relying on officials to alter the course of the game in their favor, which is at least respectable, if not also wise since it removes variability they ultimately don’t control from their strategy. That probably puts them at a competitive disadvantage most nights, though.

In conclusion: I think the team taking charges is the clearest area of defensive improvement the team could make and it’s years overdue. This is especially true against 5-out lineups, which no one can convince me are not a huge problem for us.
 
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