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Jazz Offseason Plan

Ineptimusprime said:
According to TJ yesterday on Spence Checketts’ podcast, the only three guys on our roster with positive trade value are Don, Rudy, and Royce.

If that’s true, their trade value really can’t get much lower if it’s already rock bottom, right?

Also, there’s no way JC doesn’t have trade value. Bogey is also completely worth his contract, so no idea why he wouldn’t have positive value for a “win now” team looking for shooting and scoring.
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I don’t see that as true. You may not love what you get in a bogey or JC trade but doesn’t mean they have negative value. TJ has some sources but most of the stuff he has nailed has been because he has a relationship with Favs. Outside of that he states fairly obvious vanilla takes. I don’t put a ton of stock into his takes.
 
We have plenty of guys who have trade value. The issue is that what we'd be able to get back for them doesn't fit very specific needs that we have, unless you're stripping things down quite a bit. Ergo, simply trading Clarkson or Bojan likely won't return you the type of return you're looking for. Or, if it does, it's not going to return you enough of that value to justify it. If you were making a few of those trades and completely retooling and straight up looking for value rather than something very specific, then maybe it could work if you could change your concept and fit new pieces together, but with our current coach good luck with that. Then Rudy. Yes, Rudy has value, but he's not nearly as valuable to anyone else as he is to us, so that's really a non-starter. Our best bet is trying to shore up around the edges like DL should have done last year. The bigger problem is coaching flexibility, which isn't really changing, so I don't know what to say about that.
 




That player option is gonna come to be every bit as important as I bitched it would be lol. Ain’t no way you have time to switch paths a year from now with only 1/2 viable years on your super stars contract. That’s 3rd year would help. A lot.

Yes let’s push this team that won’t win a title one more year down the road, have Joe coming off for nothing, having everyone get a year older and less value, and THEN THEN let’s try to change course. This team isn’t winning a title as is, and when we get ousted in round 2 next postseason, and everything is in a worse place, we can make this all even more worthless. The Lakers are better than us. The Nuggets are slightly better than us. The Nets are undoubtably a horrible matchup that would torch us if we ever did get there. This year is like a once in a decade opportunity and they blew it as hard as they could. There’s many teams coming that are equal, but like come on. THIS was this teams shot and they folded.
 
Tony's response to the rumors that Joe or Bogey could be moved this offseason.



 
Running it back idea is just simply making it easier for Donovan to decide on leaving the Jazz much sooner imho. It won't work and we'll have another Dame situation in Utah as well. If the new owner is all in making big changes then do it!
 
stormkoopacv03 said:
Running it back idea is just simply making it easier for Donovan to decide on leaving the Jazz much sooner imho. It won't work and we'll have another Dame situation in Utah as well. If the new owner is all in making big changes then do it!
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I agree with this. If Don truly is potentially thinking of leaving eventually (not just oneye speculation), this season could speed up that process.

I just still question the Rudy and Don dynamic. If Don ends up leaving, it's more because of that than anything else. It's Rudy's team, but Don is the superstar. Eventually, that's an issue for every "alpha" type player.

I don't think the Dame situation is a fair comparison because Dame has been the focus of that team for a long time.

Wade quickly became the focus of the Miami Heat even though the team had Mourning and Shaq. Those guys ended up deferring to Wade, and we all know they won that title early in Wade's career. Now of course Mourning and Shaq were more on the decline in their careers than Rudy is now, but the point still stands.

I just don't think Rudy wants to defer to Don, and that will lead to issues if it hasn't already.
 
LoPo said:
I agree with this. If Don truly is potentially thinking of leaving eventually (not just oneye speculation), this season could speed up that process.

I just still question the Rudy and Don dynamic. If Don ends up leaving, it's more because of that than anything else. It's Rudy's team, but Don is the superstar. Eventually, that's an issue for every "alpha" type player.

I don't think the Dame situation is a fair comparison because Dame has been the focus of that team for a long time.

Wade quickly became the focus of the Miami Heat even though the team had Mourning and Shaq. Those guys ended up deferring to Wade, and we all know they won that title early in Wade's career. Now of course Mourning and Shaq were more on the decline in their careers than Rudy is now, but the point still stands.

I just don't think Rudy wants to defer to Don, and that will lead to issues if it hasn't already.
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lmfao ok Skip Bayless
 
stormkoopacv03 said:
Running it back idea is just simply making it easier for Donovan to decide on leaving the Jazz much sooner imho. It won't work and we'll have another Dame situation in Utah as well. If the new owner is all in making big changes then do it!
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There's almost a 0% chance the Jazz can make the roster better (on paper at least) by not running it back. You have to get Conley back, and once that happens the avenues to change the team are pretty limited.

The best case scenario is that Jazz run it back and make tweaks to the roster so that Quin feels more comfortable developing the 10th-11th man on the roster.
 
All of this hinges on Conley. If he stays, I’d make a hard push for Batum for full MLE. I doubt he would take it. Then I’d go after Gay and offer the full MLE.
 
LoPo said:
Explain

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
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What's there to explain? It's pretty clear the reason the two don't like each other isn't due to "Whose teams is it?" (And it's pretty clear Mitchell is the more popular teammate and I don't think Rudy really cares all that much, so it's not like some huge power struggle internally, it's "Mitchell's team" if you really want to focus on that) it's more due to the fact that each player thinks the other one needs to do more to shore up their weaknesses. Rudy gets frustrated that he cant trust Don on defense and Don gets frustrated that he can't trust Rudy on offense. There is almost no overlap in their roles. I think each gets proper credit for what they do. Rudy is winning DPOY trophies out the *** and Mitchell is making All-Star games and getting love from the "in his bag" section of NBA fans. If Mitchell comes out next year and averages 30-5-5 it's not like his MVP chances will be hurt by playing with Gobert.

If Donovan ultimately ask out, it's not because of Rudy. It's because Utah's stuck in cap hell and not getting high drafts picks while being located in Utah, so little chance of attracting top tier FA's even if Utah manages to clear cap-space to set themselves up. Donovan will ask himself if it's worth it to continue winning in a small market or if he's better off forcing himself to a bigger market where he can make more money, boost his profile even more, and have a chance at forming "super teams".

In short, the biggest hurdle Utah faces is still the fact that they are a NBA team in Utah.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
What's there to explain? It's pretty clear the reason the two don't like each other isn't due to "Whose teams is it?" (And it's pretty clear Mitchell is the more popular teammate and I don't think Rudy really cares all that much, so it's not like some huge power struggle internally, it's "Mitchell's team" if you really want to focus on that) it's more due to the fact that each player thinks the other one needs to do more to shore up their weaknesses. Rudy gets frustrated that he cant trust Don on defense and Don gets frustrated that he can't trust Rudy on offense. There is almost no overlap in their roles. I think each gets proper credit for what they do. Rudy is winning DPOY trophies out the *** and Mitchell is making All-Star games and getting love from the "in his bag" section of NBA fans. If Mitchell comes out next year and averages 30-5-5 it's not like his MVP chances will be hurt by playing with Gobert.

If Donovan ultimately ask out, it's not because of Rudy. It's because Utah's stuck in cap hell and not getting high drafts picks while being located in Utah, so little chance of attracting top tier FA's even if Utah manages to clear cap-space to set themselves up. Donovan will ask himself if it's worth it to continue winning in a small market or if he's better off forcing himself to a bigger market where he can make more money, boost his profile even more, and have a chance at forming "super teams".

In short, the biggest hurdle Utah faces is still the fact that they are a NBA team in Utah.
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If Utah is stuck in cap hell, as you say, how could that not be because of Rudy? The guy is set to average over $43 million the last 3 years of his deal. If Rudy and Don are already a little uneasy, and the team is clearly built around Rudy to this point, how can Rudy not be one of the reasons why Don might want to explore pastures elsewhere?

I'm not saying the main reason Don would want to go is Rudy, but I think it would be a contributing factor.

#1 - Winning
#2 - Is it his team or Rudy's?
#3 - Market

If you win, market doesn't matter. If your main teammate is annoying, and you aren't winning, you might want to head out sooner rather than later.
 
LoPo said:
If Utah is stuck in cap hell, as you say, how could that not be because of Rudy? The guy is set to average over $43 million the last 3 years of his deal. If Rudy and Don are already a little uneasy, and the team is clearly built around Rudy to this point, how can Rudy not be one of the reasons why Don might want to explore pastures elsewhere?

I'm not saying the main reason Don would want to go is Rudy, but I think it would be a contributing factor.

#1 - Winning
#2 - Is it his team or Rudy's?
#3 - Market

If you win, market doesn't matter. If your main teammate is annoying, and you aren't winning, you might want to head out sooner rather than later.
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The team is not built around Rudy. It's built around Don.

The team is built in a way that Rudy has to shoulder a huge defensive burden while Mitchell has every offensive weapon at his disposal and can play both guards spots with an unlimited amount of shots available to him.

ANd yeah, I guess you can say part of the cap situation is Rudy, but it would be the same way if RUdy wasnt there. If Rudy wasnt there, Utah would be paying some other dude a near max salary, and probably one who isnt nearly as good as Gobert. This is just how team building in the NBA works. You get your core, but then the core gets too expensive as guys go into their 2nd/3rd contracts. Teams like the Heat/Lakers can overcome this because they can always just unload then get guys to come. Utah can't do that in most scenarios, no matter how much you think players like Mitchell. It will always just be "why would we come to Utah when we all just go to Miami/LA?".
 
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Saint Cy of JFC said:
The team is not built around Rudy. It's built around Don.

The team is built in a way that Rudy has to shoulder a huge defensive burden while Mitchell has every offensive weapon at his disposal and can play both guards spots with an unlimited amount of shots available to him.
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You are wrong. So wrong.

Bojan was brought in because Favors and Rudy didn't work together. Rudy's ability to get lobs was more difficult in the playoffs because Favors couldn't spread the floor.

Clarkson was brought in to shave a year off of Exum's stupid deal, but JC ended up being great. But how he plays doesn't do anything to support Donovan on the court. At least Exum was there to support Don on the defensive end. Clarkson doesn't do that.

Favors was brought back to have insurance for Rudy.

Royce came in the same year as Don. Joe was here before Don.

Which brings us to Mike Conley. Give me one reason why Mike Conley was brought in for Donovan Mitchell, and just because he's good doesn't count. He was an undersized, ball dominant PG who plays slightly above average defense. His entire career, he was able to get the best out of his big man teammates. Never at any point in Conley's career did he support or help create a good backcourt teammate. The closest was Tony Allen who was a top perimeter defender and not much else.

No Cy, this team is not built around Don at all. If it was, we would have gotten perimeter defenders to help on that end of the floor. That's what good teams do - they support their stars by putting them in the best situation on both ends.
 
I have converted to team “run it back” but trade Favs, and maybe Bojan if there’s a deal for us to put someone that rebounds and defends better in his spot. Bojan’s probably the only other player I consider trading. Then draft someone who can get some minutes — a big PG like (Ayo) or a wing like Murphy if he’s available. If a comparable player isn’t available, I’d trade down to try to get off Fav’s contract and draft Herb Jones. Sign a small ball 5 and whatever length and athleticism you can get for a minimum contract. There was enough there this season that we at least try to get to the deadline to see if it was fool’s gold. Teams work a long time to build a roster like ours.

Re-signing Mike is critical. If we aren’t a top tier team by the deadline, we can re-evaluate and flip Mike for a first if it’s clear we aren’t contending. It would absolutely suck to lose him for nothing right now. If we lose Mike, I like the Bojan for Rozier trade and think it makes sense for both teams. Charlotte could use Bogey’s shooting and scoring, and has a bit of a glut at the guard spot with LaMelo, Graham, and Rozier. If they want to get off Graham, I’d consider a S&T for Graham (Don’s buddy) too if they want to keep Rozier.

There’s a lot we could do with Charlotte that you could argue makes sense for both teams. They also have an abundance of long, switchy dudes and could probably afford to give something up there too to diversify their roster.
 
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Re-sign Mike (because this is the corner we’ve painted ourselves into).

Trade Favors for Delon Wright

Trade JC for Marcus Smart.

Draft a power-wing who has the potential to help this year as a situational defender (but who has some growth upside as a shooter).
 
LoPo said:
You are wrong. So wrong.

Bojan was brought in because Favors and Rudy didn't work together. Rudy's ability to get lobs was more difficult in the playoffs because Favors couldn't spread the floor.

Clarkson was brought in to shave a year off of Exum's stupid deal, but JC ended up being great. But how he plays doesn't do anything to support Donovan on the court. At least Exum was there to support Don on the defensive end. Clarkson doesn't do that.

Favors was brought back to have insurance for Rudy.

Royce came in the same year as Don. Joe was here before Don.

Which brings us to Mike Conley. Give me one reason why Mike Conley was brought in for Donovan Mitchell, and just because he's good doesn't count. He was an undersized, ball dominant PG who plays slightly above average defense. His entire career, he was able to get the best out of his big man teammates. Never at any point in Conley's career did he support or help create a good backcourt teammate. The closest was Tony Allen who was a top perimeter defender and not much else.

No Cy, this team is not built around Don at all. If it was, we would have gotten perimeter defenders to help on that end of the floor. That's what good teams do - they support their stars by putting them in the best situation on both ends.
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This **** is too funny lmfao. The reality is that we can both frame these things how we want. The Bojan/Favors thing is the best example. Your framing it as Rudy needing space, but we could easily frame it as Donovan needing space. The addition helped both players, but I would argue it helped the offensive more (which is more tilted in Donovan's favor, ie it makes him look better). I think both arguments are technically right, but mine is more right.

This is not arguable though: The Jazz put way more effort/attention/money into their offense this year and basically told Gobert you got this defense thing on your own. At the end of the day the offense is going to be attributed to Mitchell more than it is Gobert and the defense to Gobert more than it is Mitchell. Weakening the defense is not building around Gobert, as it tilts the team more towards Donovan's strengths.

And yes, Conley is there because of Mitchell. The team obviously has very little confidence in Mitchell as a full-time PG so they wanted a PG to help transition him more into that role. That's why they didnt sign a veteran backup PG. They wanted Mitchell to have those minutes and split backup PG duties with Ingles.

*Also trying to argue Favors addition is building around Gobert when they played almost zero minutes together is the goofiest **** you've done in a while*
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
This **** is too funny lmfao. The reality is that we can both frame these things how we want. The Bojan/Favors thing is the best example. Your framing it as Rudy needing space, but we could easily frame it as Donovan needing space. The addition helped both players, but I would argue it helped the offensive more (which is more tilted in Donovan's favor, ie it makes him look better). I think both arguments are technically right, but mine is more right.

This is not arguable though: The Jazz put way more effort/attention/money into their offense this year and basically told Gobert you got this defense thing on your own. At the end of the day the offense is going to be attributed to Mitchell more than it is Gobert and the defense to Gobert more than it is Mitchell. Weakening the defense is not building around Gobert, as it tilts the team more towards Donovan's strengths.

And yes, Conley is there because of Mitchell. The team obviously has very little confidence in Mitchell as a full-time PG so they wanted a PG to help transition him more into that role. That's why they didnt sign a veteran backup PG. They wanted Mitchell to have those minutes and split backup PG duties with Ingles.

*Also trying to argue Favors addition is building around Gobert when they played almost zero minutes together is the goofiest **** you've done in a while*
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Okay, so your argument is that Bojan was brought in to spread the floor for Donovan yet they put the ball in Conley's hands?

You're brilliant Cy. Absolutely brilliant.
 
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