And you smoking some hard crack if you think playoff nba teams dont value him
Trade deadline discussion
- Thread starter Jingled
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Bit too early to say Ingles doesn't have value to a playoff team but he is heading in that direction. Quin needs to stop kissing his *** and start benching it for his complete lack of effort. At this point in time though he is definitely the player currently in the rotation that should be used in any trade deal.
Ingles effort is really low this season. I don't think he's any slower, he just isn't putting in the effort anymore. If we keep him, give him some rest and family time.
Something is definitely off with him this year and it's not all just age related. Maybe all the trade rumors in the offseason and so far this season have gotten to him? His heart just doesn't seem to be in it this year.
Handlogten's Heros
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He looks heavier to me… and yeah seems to be not really giving his best or not able to give his best… I really think this is it for him and he may have his bags packed already. It’s super sad to say but I think he may be the guy we move. I flipping love the guy and will always be a huge fan… hope he makes us look stupid.
I agree. He's one of my favorite Jazzmen of all time but he appears to have not only lost a step but lost some of his desire and love for the game as well. It's hard to see them moving anyone else in the rotation but him at this point.
campaignist
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Lots of people seem to think he has neutral or even negative value, due to him having a down season and his poor defense. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s seen as a system guy who wouldn’t be as good anywhere else.
I guess I’m in the minority in having very little to no concerns about Joe. He’s always kind of been a drifter, especially on defense. Hustling back has never been his thing.
Offensively, he’s just not as involved because no one has been injured and when someone is Forrest is getting the time and dominating the ball. We all know that Joe is way more engaged on both ends when he’s getting the ball a lot.
For a lot of last season Joe was the backup PG and the offense ran through him whenever Don/Mike was resting and the other was out. Maybe he’s lost a step. I kept saying all summer that we can’t expect so many old players to continue to defy Father Time. But for me, I think we’re seeing a lot of what we’ve seen in the past from Joe and particularly when he isn’t involved in the offense. Joe was insane last year and that’s was a result of getting a ton of time with the ball and also shooting at a crazy high clip. If you look at what Joe is doing this season, it’s right in alignment with past seasons (offensively at least).
If it came down to it and Conley/Mitchell got injured again, I would trust Joe to run things and ramp up more on offense more than anyone else. I’d also trust him to be a better point of attack defender than anyone in the main rotation besides Conley.
Offensively, he’s just not as involved because no one has been injured and when someone is Forrest is getting the time and dominating the ball. We all know that Joe is way more engaged on both ends when he’s getting the ball a lot.
For a lot of last season Joe was the backup PG and the offense ran through him whenever Don/Mike was resting and the other was out. Maybe he’s lost a step. I kept saying all summer that we can’t expect so many old players to continue to defy Father Time. But for me, I think we’re seeing a lot of what we’ve seen in the past from Joe and particularly when he isn’t involved in the offense. Joe was insane last year and that’s was a result of getting a ton of time with the ball and also shooting at a crazy high clip. If you look at what Joe is doing this season, it’s right in alignment with past seasons (offensively at least).
If it came down to it and Conley/Mitchell got injured again, I would trust Joe to run things and ramp up more on offense more than anyone else. I’d also trust him to be a better point of attack defender than anyone in the main rotation besides Conley.
Not so much...7.6 ppg is by far his lowest since the 2016 season and his field goal percentage and 3 point percentage are way down from the past few seasons, assists are also down.
I'm not all that in on Jerami Grant, not that he'd be easy to trade for. Lets say Grant is a better player than Kyle Kuzma, but then the question is -- how much better is he, before taking into consideration the cost? Kuzma will guard on the perimeter, provide length and energy, and grab rebounds. Grant is more likely to make a big defensive play. Both are fairly comparable shooters. Neither are great decision makers.
His points/assists are a little lower, but his minutes and touches are also way lower. He’s not really performing worse, just getting less reps.
How do we explain his lack of touches? Is it because he stinks now? I don’t think so. I think it’s because of the team environment/situation and that if we needed him to get more involved he would very easily ramp up and produce at a higher level. I don’t think it’s his ability that’s capping him, it’s opportunity. If Conley/Mitchell missed a few games in a row and we played Oni instead of Forrest I don’t think we’d be having these questions. I would be concerned if I didn’t believe he could play better given more engagement and touches, but I’m not there yet.
Really, what we’re seeing from Joe right now is exactly what I wanted before the season started. I wanted him to take on a smaller burden during the RS on both ends. It doesn’t bother me that he’s coasting, it’s what I wanted. Maybe it turns out that he has a bad playoffs and can’t flip the switch….but my hunch is this lesser burden will pay dividends.
People were down on Joe this summer too and I didn’t understand why. There was a narrative that he falls apart in the playoffs, but that didn’t really even happen. He was probably our third best player in the Clippers series and one mistake that hasn’t been talked about much is that we probably didn’t lean on him enough in games 5&6.
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The numbers are quite a bit lower from last year... which may have been an outlier year for shooting. He is down from 49% catch and shoot three point percentage to 38%. His transition defense is putrid. The eye test, which is never the best with Joe, also shows me some decline. It isn't just that he is slow... it doesn't look like he has his legs and he looks a tad heavy in the midsection to me. No way to truly know unless you take BMI measurements there. He looks extra worn out though... which would only increase with more usage imo.
To not expect some decline in play is a bit dumb as father time is undefeated and he has a lot of miles from playoff runs and international play. Has not had time to just work on his body. The question imo "is this the new Joe Ingles or can he get his legs back?"
I agree he should be involved in more actions to force him to engage... but Hassan isn't the best pick and roll partner for what Joe does. Forrest on the court limits spacing and he is likely viewed as another ball handler so Joe maybe defers a bit more.
Joe was hyper efficient off the bench... was good as a starter but like earth shatteringly efficient as a bench player... so I don't think it is just the bench role or a limited role. If I had to split the blame pie I'd go:
- 50% age and wear and tear (last 2 years he has played an incredible amount of basketball)
- 30% guys he is playing with that don't fit well.
- 20% natural ebbs and flows of shooting.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
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You both can eat my *** raw!!! If you don’t think we are legit contenders. Who knows how far we go had both Mitchell and Conley not been well under 100%. This year there isn’t a team in the west that scares me. Yes, we lost to GS but we looked like the better team, just couldn’t get shots to fall that night on a consistent basis.
LoPo, trading either Conley or JC would be season suicide.
Joe's 2021 season was incredible, but it's also an extreme outlier for his career so I never expected that to repeat. And you're preaching to the choir about father time. It's something I voiced concerned with over and over in the off-season. We have a very old team and age related regression was not something that was talked about much. Having said that, wear and tear would be the smallest slice of my pie. If we had the same team situation last year, where Conley/Mitchell were out and we were playing Oni instead of Forrest, I'd expect that Joe's level of play would rise on both ends. Joe has always been prone to coasting and not necessarily being engaged. This isn't something new, and it's definitely not something I'm worried about because this is exactly what I wanted to see from Joe. Age/miles is my biggest concern for Joe. I want him fresh as possible for the playoffs so coasting on both ends is good for in the long run.
For me, this is nothing we haven't seen from Joe throughout his career and I'm not at all concerned that if we needed him to ramp up, he could do it. My biggest concern with Joe is actually that we phase him out and underutilize him come playoff time. If you were expecting a repeat of 2021, yeah I could see how you are disappointed in Joe. That's not where I'm at. Where I'm at is that if we had Mike/Don in Covid protocols and Joe had a good week shooting he'd be pretty close to the player he's mostly been for the past however many years (2021 being an obvious outlier in his career).
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Fair... He just doesn't look right to me on top of the numbers stuff. I just think we still need that athletic active wing and Joe may be the easiest chip to move to get that. Having him as a guy that can ramp up is certainly nice and will come in handy at points during the season. It may be a luxury with good health and the wing need is becoming a necessity. If Mike or Donovan are hurt in the playoffs we are screwed anyway. Maybe in the first round we could slide by with Joe but not in the second round. I think we are pretty well locked into the 3 seed... so I don't care as much about the regular season and just want us to have the best potential team for the playoffs. Depending on the trade market and what we could get for Joe and a first... the best we can do may very well be Joe. I still think we are 50%+ to stand pat. I would almost guarantee we make some addition but if the trade doesn't involve a rotation player then I don't really consider it much of an addition.
homeytennis
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Can we all agree the last three drafts have been busts? We should have someone to plug in when Joe is laboring and it appears we don't.
If only we had a young guy who could play PG.
homeytennis
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I'm about to get off the Butler train. The fact that he can't beat out an undrafted free agent for minutes says a lot. He must really stink in practice and scrimmages. He supposedly showed up to the Stars with an attitude that's he's much superior to the GLeague. That's my BestBuy story and I'm sticking to it.