Jazz vs. Mavs in round one

[Jingled]

I disagree. Mitchell led us over OKC as a rookie when our supporting cast wasn't that great and comparable to what Doncic has had.

While our roster has been better, our playoff roster hasn't been that much better due to injuries.

Luka throws up some eye popping stats, but Donovan has a better playoff resume to this point.

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Donovan's been fantastic in the playoffs, I'm not arguing that. It's simply a fact though that he's had a much better supporting cast around him than Luka. Even in his rookie year, he had an all NBA, defensive player of the year, top 3 center, plus Rubio, Ingles, Favors, Crowder, Joe Johnson, AB, etc.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I feel like his basketball teams were even pretty successful. His byu team went deep in the tournament iirc and his celtics teams were pretty good when he played on them i think. Even his teams that he has been the gm for have had pretty good success (getting to the playoffs and acquiring hella assets. Which they admittedly blew)
Dude has been pretty succesful in basketball teams as well imo. Though not elite successful


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the curse started when he boned IT... I laid it out in its own thread. Lots of weird things happened when he boned IT and tampered with Hayward. His teams were still successful but man... they were setup for so much more than they have had. Kyrie went full flat earther on em... they had a ton of picks miss... Hayward breaks in the first game.... now Ainge leaves and they are back up.... just saying.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Donovan's been fantastic in the playoffs, I'm not arguing that. It's simply a fact though that he's had a much better supporting cast around him than Luka. Even in his rookie year, he had an all NBA, defensive player of the year, top 3 center, plus Rubio, Ingles, Favors, Crowder, Joe Johnson, AB, etc.

Donovan's resume is better than Luka's right now... by the end of their careers doe?

Luka has run into a Clippers team that is pretty phenomenal as well... that OKC team that Donovan beat wasn't the same as the Clips team that Luka has almost beat.

If we get good Donovan I feel wonderful about our chances... just a tad skeptical given how fragile we have been.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Clarkson going inside over and over and making the dallas defense work rather than jacking up 3’s will have a huge effect on this series.
Hopefully we get the clarkson that takes it inside a lot.


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If the Mavs go small to space the floor and target Rudy, then our guards need to sail right to the rim. Everyone says that Gobert needs to punish teams in the paint, but Clarkson and Mitchell should be able to shoot layups.

 

[LoPo]

Donovan's been fantastic in the playoffs, I'm not arguing that. It's simply a fact though that he's had a much better supporting cast around him than Luka. Even in his rookie year, he had an all NBA, defensive player of the year, top 3 center, plus Rubio, Ingles, Favors, Crowder, Joe Johnson, AB, etc.

I'm fairly certain that Rudy wasn't an All NBA the year that we beat OKC (2018). Rudy was the DPOY though. However, I think most could admit that it's not like he had an amazing series against OKC. Adams gave him all sorts of fits. Rudy was good then, but he has been on a different level the last few years.

I mean, the supporting unit was solid, but no true 2nd great player that postseason.

What Donovan did that series was pretty legendary. Doncic hasn't made it out of the first round yet.

 

[MT Steve]

I'm fairly certain that Rudy wasn't an All NBA the year that we beat OKC (2018). Rudy was the DPOY though. However, I think most could admit that it's not like he had an amazing series against OKC. Adams gave him all sorts of fits. Rudy was good then, but he has been on a different level the last few years.

I mean, the supporting unit was solid, but no true 2nd great player that postseason.

What Donovan did that series was pretty legendary. Doncic hasn't made it out of the first round yet.

OKC had a top 10 offense that season and the Jazz held them to an abysmal 104.1 offensive rating. Only 3 teams that season finished with a worse offensive rating - none of them won more than 23 games.

Gobert utterly erased the paint from them in that series, which effectively killed their offense, and you're trying to tell me we had no true 2nd great player? Wtf?

 

[LoPo]

OKC had a top 10 offense that season and the Jazz held them to an abysmal 104.1 offensive rating. Only 3 teams that season finished with a worse offensive rating - none of them won more than 23 games.

Gobert utterly erased the paint from them in that series, which effectively killed their offense, and you're trying to tell me we had no true 2nd great player? Wtf?

I didn't say that Rudy wasn't a great player.

In that series though, we led with team defense. Rubio, Jae, Favors, Ingles and even Don helped with those defensive efforts. Favors had a couple monster games. Yes Rudy played well, but believe it or not, our defense in the OKC series was a great team effort. Everybody chipped in. It wasn't like some Rudy masterclass.

It helped that their selfishness also helped them implode. Russ, Melo and George all trying to share one ball.

 

[MT Steve]

I didn't say that Rudy wasn't a great player.

You said we had no true 2nd great player that postseason.

In that series though, we led with team defense. Rubio, Jae, Favors, Ingles and even Don helped with those defensive efforts. Favors had a couple monster games. Yes Rudy played well, but believe it or not, our defense in the OKC series was a great team effort. Everybody chipped in. It wasn't like some Rudy masterclass.

Our worst defensive stretch of the series came in Game 5 when Rudy had to sit due to foul trouble (on a terrible call). Our "great team effort" defensively sure fell apart in epic fashion when it wasn't anchored by Gobert.

Fun fact about the 2017-18 season. Rudy Gobert missed a month that season. During the month he missed, the Jazz had the 4th worst defense in the entire league:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Prior to his injury, the Jazz had the 4th best defense in the league:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

After he returned from injury, the Jazz had the best defense in the league by a mile:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

 

[Elizah Huge]

I'm fairly certain that Rudy wasn't an All NBA the year that we beat OKC (2018). Rudy was the DPOY though. However, I think most could admit that it's not like he had an amazing series against OKC. Adams gave him all sorts of fits. Rudy was good then, but he has been on a different level the last few years.

I mean, the supporting unit was solid, but no true 2nd great player that postseason.

What Donovan did that series was pretty legendary. Doncic hasn't made it out of the first round yet.

My man Steven Adams did not give Gobert any kind of fits lmao.

He averaged 10.7 PPG and 7.5 RPG which were both WAY under his regular season averages of 13.9 PPG and 9 RPG. That year he averaged a career high 62.9% from the field and Rudy held him to 58.7%.

 

[Elizah Huge]

It is really quite basic. Donovan has carried us offensively in the playoffs at times where we’ve struggled. At times if he didn’t we would have absolutely lost games. A cost of this is he is usually pretty gassed on defense. That is why him and Gobert can work together very well because he doesn’t demand the ball on offense like Jokic or Embiid. That is also why having just one amazing perimeter defender would help us out so much because if Donovan is gassed at least we have other guys locking down but with others not playing defense it creates issues.

 

[Elizah Huge]

By the way the more I think about it I think Luka will miss Games 1 and 2 plus maybe more like the entire series.

 

[LoPo]

You said we had no true 2nd great player that postseason.



Our worst defensive stretch of the series came in Game 5 when Rudy had to sit due to foul trouble (on a terrible call). Our "great team effort" defensively sure fell apart in epic fashion when it wasn't anchored by Gobert.

Fun fact about the 2017-18 season. Rudy Gobert missed a month that season. During the month he missed, the Jazz had the 4th worst defense in the entire league:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Prior to his injury, the Jazz had the 4th best defense in the league:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

After he returned from injury, the Jazz had the best defense in the league by a mile:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

When the series happened, the narrative everywhere was that Donovan led the team while the team played great defensively.

Now, your narrative now is that Don played well but Rudy also dominated. That's not what the talk was in 2018.

In 10 years, the narrative will be that Rudy was the reason we won that series and Don was pretty good too.

I'm not saying Rudy played poorly, but he wasn't some star in that series. He battled with Adams, and won that battle most times.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

By the way the more I think about it I think Luka will miss Games 1 and 2 plus maybe more like the entire series.

Obviously we will know more later today... but I think the schedule could do us a huge favor... if we started on Sunday and there was a two day break in between games 1 and 2 (this happens to maximize TV games) then it really helps them. I'm really curious to see the whole schedule. If you go up 3-0 they may just not risk it.

If they win game 1 then it buys them some time. It isn't crazy at all to think they could win without Luka. Brunson and Dinwiddie are solid and if they get hot... I think if Luka sits the first two you have to go up 2-0 so they question how wise it is to bring him back at all.

I will say this... If he plays and we don't force him to be involved on defense every play I will be pissed.

 

[MT Steve]

When the series happened, the narrative everywhere was that Donovan led the team while the team played great defensively.

Now, your narrative now is that Don played well but Rudy also dominated. That's not what the talk was in 2018.

In 10 years, the narrative will be that Rudy was the reason we won that series and Don was pretty good too.

I'm not saying Rudy played poorly, but he wasn't some star in that series. He battled with Adams, and won that battle most times.

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I like how I link directly to the actual data showing our defense was bottom 4 in the league in games without Gobert and top 4 in games with Gobert, and Lopo's only counter-argument is "That doesn't match the narrative back then though!"

If the narrative doesn't match the data, that's an indictment on the narrative, not the data.

 

[LoPo]

I like how I link directly to the actual data showing our defense was bottom 4 in the league in games without Gobert and top 4 in games with Gobert, and Lopo's only counter-argument is "That doesn't match the narrative back then though!"

If the narrative doesn't match the data, that's an indictment on the narrative, not the data.

I was talking about the playoff series versus the Oklahoma City Thunder. We all know Rudy impacts the other team's offense. No ****. That's his job. Just like it was also the primary jobs for Favors and Jae - Defense.

Rudy outplayed Adams (like somebody mentioned earlier about the stats 13+ppg and 10+rpg to Adams' 10+ppg and 7+rpg), but it wasn't some domination like we would expect now.

 

[LoPo]

Back to the actual f-ing point of the thread.

I think we could and should win this series if Doncic is not 100% healthy. Hell, I think we could win the series if they were 100%. We have the talent to run with anybody.

 

[MT Steve]

I was talking about the playoff series versus the Oklahoma City Thunder. We all know Rudy impacts the other team's offense. No ****. That's his job. Just like it was also the primary jobs for Favors and Jae - Defense.

And the team, minus Gobert, was 27th in defense. With Gobert, they were top 4. Turns out Gobert was a little bit more important than everybody else.

If you're trying to argue that those stats are only applicable to the regular season, then let me ask this: Aside from your impulsive desire to hate on Gobert, do you have any reason, any evidence whatsoever to justify why you believe that Gobert was a defensive superstar all regular season but not in the 1st round against OKC when their paint scoring mysteriously died?

Rudy outplayed Adams (like somebody mentioned earlier about the stats 13+ppg and 10+rpg to Adams' 10+ppg and 7+rpg), but it wasn't some domination like we would expect now.

Comparing Rudy's ppg and rpg to the opposing center's is such a horrificly disingenous way to judge his impact. I hope that you know that and are just trolling.

 

[fishonjazz]

the curse started when he boned IT... I laid it out in its own thread. Lots of weird things happened when he boned IT and tampered with Hayward. His teams were still successful but man... they were setup for so much more than they have had. Kyrie went full flat earther on em... they had a ton of picks miss... Hayward breaks in the first game.... now Ainge leaves and they are back up.... just saying.

Ya I remember being certain that a championship was in their sights with all the assets they had and money available……. Funny enough, they are currently playing better than anyone and might get there this year. Right when ainge left lol


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[fishonjazz]

I didn't say that Rudy wasn't a great player.

In that series though, we led with team defense. Rubio, Jae, Favors, Ingles and even Don helped with those defensive efforts. Favors had a couple monster games. Yes Rudy played well, but believe it or not, our defense in the OKC series was a great team effort. Everybody chipped in. It wasn't like some Rudy masterclass.

It helped that their selfishness also helped them implode. Russ, Melo and George all trying to share one ball.

Melo was the mvp that series lol. Man he sucked


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[fishonjazz]

You said we had no true 2nd great player that postseason.



Our worst defensive stretch of the series came in Game 5 when Rudy had to sit due to foul trouble (on a terrible call). Our "great team effort" defensively sure fell apart in epic fashion when it wasn't anchored by Gobert.

Fun fact about the 2017-18 season. Rudy Gobert missed a month that season. During the month he missed, the Jazz had the 4th worst defense in the entire league:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Prior to his injury, the Jazz had the 4th best defense in the league:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

After he returned from injury, the Jazz had the best defense in the league by a mile:

Teams Advanced | Stats | NBA.com

A table featuring advanced information for each team in the league based on selected filters.

www.nba.com

Its criminal how under appreciated gobert is. I think it was 2 years ago that i saw a stat saying that the jazz defense was the best defense of all time when gobert was on court and the worst defense in the league that season when he was on the bench. Thats insane **** right there.


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