What's new
By:
Filters

The Knicks are at the Cross Section of Hope and Desperation

infection said:
Where the hell is the general trade thread? Anyway, since we're talking about the Knicks, what about Mike for Fournier straight up, maybe they send some draft compensation? Contract length is effectively the same with Fournier having a team option on the last year, and this move would save us north of $4M next year, and if you'll recall, we traded Ingles for a net savings of $3M so that we could save $11M or whatever with tax. Another alternative is to move Mike, Gay, and NAW to NY for Fournier and Kemba. That deal would save us probably more than $5M in salary alone, plus converting the last two years of Rudy Gay into an expiring in Kemba. I know that nobody would want to do these moves now because it would unload some of the potential salary workings of a Donovan-to-NY deal, but we all know the FO isn't looking to move Donovan, but we do know they are looking to "re-tool" and also save money, though definitely not in that order.
Click to expand...

Mike for Fournier+Reddish is something I've thought makes sense.
 
infection said:
I think realistically we’re looking at a deal like this where we can rebalance a bit but also save money, and there’s no drastic change. It’d be great if they paired that with a coaching change but it sounds like they won’t do whatever. Let’s save some money, I guess.
Click to expand...
Deni would be awesome...
 
I'm pretty sure NY would want no part of Conley after the Kemba experience. They likely want to be out of the Fournier business too, but I think they'd target something different. Contracts are functionally the same length.

I think the best chance at a solid return in a Conley deal are deals with Washington, LAC, and maybe Detroit (assuming they miss on Brunson, Jones, Ant Simons)
 
SoberasHotRod said:
When I googled him the other day I saw something on a fan blog site about how much they love him and see him as a long term piece. Take that for what it's worth.
Click to expand...
Yeah... they should. They have a few good combo forwards and my guess is they prefer Deni to Rui. In the athletic article I read they compared the two and gave Deni the slight edge. They also mentioned the issue at pg and that one of their combo forwards likely has to be moved to bring in a pg.

That whole situation really rests on Beal. If they keep him and sign him they likely want some pg help from a veteran. Dinwiddie was too much of a strong personality so I'm guessing Mike's nice guy attitude would be completely welcome. We may have to add something there... Knicks might help grease the wheels as I think they would like a redo on the Fournier deal and they'd be setup for a ton of cap space in 2023.

The FA pgs in Washington's budget aren't great. Its their biggest weakness positionally... I think its a solid match if they aren't irrationally high on Deni.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think Reddish would set a record for number of days spent in Quin's doghouse.
Click to expand...

Not sure Quin is going to be the coach, and even if he is Reddish is part of the Duke mafia. I think Quin definitely plays some favorites (as does every coach), but it's not always obvious why from the outside. Don't know why he trusted Hood and Clarkson so much instead of Burks, for example. Reddish is a chucker who makes bad decisions on both ends, but Quin has favored those guys in the past.
 
Not that he is the same player... but Deni would do some of the stuff we miss from Ingles. If we nabbed an extra pick somewhere I'd consider putting it in the deal for him. If he moves from 32% from 3 into the 38% range he's about as perfect a fit as you could find for what we need.
 
LogGrad98 said:
idk if he ever wins the whole enchilada. As has been discussed here, offensively challenged centers haven't been the centerpiece of championship teams. Likewise not many high-volume scorers that refused to play any defense at all have lead their teams to championships either. The vast majority of championship teams have strong 2-way centerpiece players, who take pride in shutting people down almost as much as scoring in bunches. Mitchell might go the AI route and get a finals appearance, but I have a hard time seeing him be the main cog in a championship team, especially the way he let Brunson et al tea-bag all over him.
Click to expand...
Average and sometimes bad defense is not "refused to play any defense". A couple clips isn't some validation of this lying narrative going around.

Steph Curry plays average defense at best but he's surrounded by phenomenal defenders. Chauncy Billups was surrounded by amazing defenders. Kyrie Irving. Etc.

Donovan Mitchell wasn't guarding Brunson in that series. Occasionally, Don got stuck on Brunson and Brunson did well. You know who else got stuck on Brunson and Brunson did well? You want me to show some clips of that?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I'm pretty sure NY would want no part of Conley after the Kemba experience. They likely want to be out of the Fournier business too, but I think they'd target something different. Contracts are functionally the same length.

I think the best chance at a solid return in a Conley deal are deals with Washington, LAC, and maybe Detroit (assuming they miss on Brunson, Jones, Ant Simons)
Click to expand...
Yep. Conley to NY is really redundant with Rose, Quickley, and Kemba there. And we don't want those guys in return.

Conley works best at:

Clippers
Lakers
Detroit
Washington
Atlanta (bench)
 
LoPo said:
Average and sometimes bad defense is not "refused to play any defense". A couple clips isn't some validation of this lying narrative going around.

Steph Curry plays average defense at best but he's surrounded by phenomenal defenders. Chauncy Billups was surrounded by amazing defenders. Kyrie Irving. Etc.

Donovan Mitchell wasn't guarding Brunson in that series. Occasionally, Don got stuck on Brunson and Brunson did well. You know who else got stuck on Brunson and Brunson did well? You want me to show some clips of that?
Click to expand...
Steph has a 107 rating these season, and was one of the best if not the best on the team with steals.

Donovan's defensive rating this year is a mind numbing 111. He should be a much better defender than Curry, yet the numbers show he is much worse. As good as Don is on offense, his poor defense nullifies most of it.

Everyone knows he is capable, he just doesn't make the effort.
 
LoPo said:
Yep. Conley to NY is really redundant with Rose, Quickley, and Kemba there. And we don't want those guys in return.

Conley works best at:

Clippers
Lakers
Detroit
Washington
Atlanta (bench)
Click to expand...
If we can get the Deni deal done I start to feel better about keeping Rudy or also doing a Rudy deal. I just think he makes so much sense.

Like the Atlanta Rudy trade... say it gives you Collins/Capela and stuff... Collins really can't play small ball 5 unless he has some wings that help... Deni can do that... having Capela allows you to go big when you need to. Deni's passing helps supplement Collins and Donovan's struggles there.

Charlotte deal the same... PJ Washington isn't going to be great as small ball 5 for extended periods without guys like Deni.

He'd fit with the current roster too... having Donovan, KCP, Deni, Bogey, Rudy feels like it could be solid.

I just see the guy as a great pivot piece that allows us to do a lot of things. If we do a Rudy deal we need to add some draft capital into a Conley to Washington deal and get Deni.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
Steph has a 107 rating these season, and was one of the best if not the best on the team with steals.

Donovan's defensive rating this year is a mind numbing 111. He should be a much better defender than Curry, yet the numbers show he is much worse. As good as Don is on offense, his poor defense nullifies most of it.

Everyone knows he is capable, he just doesn't make the effort.
Click to expand...
Steph gets to play with some of the best perimeter defenders in the entire league. He guards the other team's worst offensive threat. He gets to play the passing lanes. And Donovan Mitchell averaged more steals per game than Steph.

Good perimeter defenders matter. Good teammates matter. We simply do not have a great perimeter defender on this team. Not one.

It's not about effort. Sure, he takes some plays off. But so does Steph.

Our defensive philosophy gets absolutely abused in the playoffs. This isn't an outlier. When you got guys like Brunson, Mann and Kleber lighting it up. It ain't on one person. If Don was playing on GS, I guarantee you that **** wouldn't be happening.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
Steph has a 107 rating these season, and was one of the best if not the best on the team with steals.

Donovan's defensive rating this year is a mind numbing 111. He should be a much better defender than Curry, yet the numbers show he is much worse. As good as Don is on offense, his poor defense nullifies most of it.

Everyone knows he is capable, he just doesn't make the effort.
Click to expand...
I've been thinking... it might be partly a BBIQ thing in addition to wavering commitment. Steph is super committed but also just a smart player... maybe that is part of the disconnect.

Donovan's effort could go up a lot for sure... I just wonder if physically he is capable but the mind ain't quite there. His other struggles are with shot selection and passing at times... so it would be consistent with his issues there.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
If we can get the Deni deal done I start to feel better about keeping Rudy or also doing a Rudy deal. I just think he makes so much sense.

Like the Atlanta Rudy trade... say it gives you Collins/Capela and stuff... Collins really can't play small ball 5 unless he has some wings that help... Deni can do that... having Capela allows you to go big when you need to. Deni's passing helps supplement Collins and Donovan's struggles there.

Charlotte deal the same... PJ Washington isn't going to be great as small ball 5 for extended periods without guys like Deni.

He'd fit with the current roster too... having Donovan, KCP, Deni, Bogey, Rudy feels like it could be solid.

I just see the guy as a great pivot piece that allows us to do a lot of things. If we do a Rudy deal we need to add some draft capital into a Conley to Washington deal and get Deni.
Click to expand...
I'm 100% on board with your Deni concept. It's a great idea, and one that I think Washington considers to appease Beal.

And I'm a big fan of KCP. He's flawed offensively, but he plays great defense and he plays with passion. We need that.
 
LoPo said:
Average and sometimes bad defense is not "refused to play any defense". A couple clips isn't some validation of this lying narrative going around.

Steph Curry plays average defense at best but he's surrounded by phenomenal defenders. Chauncy Billups was surrounded by amazing defenders. Kyrie Irving. Etc.

Donovan Mitchell wasn't guarding Brunson in that series. Occasionally, Don got stuck on Brunson and Brunson did well. You know who else got stuck on Brunson and Brunson did well? You want me to show some clips of that?
Click to expand...
We've already established our entire perimeter D sucks balls. Mitchell owns part of that too. And I watched every game, and saw exactly the level of effort he gave on defense. That is what I'm basing it on. Of course he wasn't guarding Brunson, we don't give him the tough defensive assignments. He's not Booker. You apparently just watched some "clips" and made your judgment from there.
 
LogGrad98 said:
We've already established our entire perimeter D sucks balls. Mitchell owns part of that too. And I watched every game, and saw exactly the level of effort he gave on defense. That is what I'm basing it on. Of course he wasn't guarding Brunson, we don't give him the tough defensive assignments. He's not Booker. You apparently just watched some "clips" and made your judgment from there.
Click to expand...
Lol. Booker doesn't get the assignments either. Because playoff basketball has so many switches, everybody will get an individual matchup from time to time. But on "matchups", Booker ain't getting Doncic on the regular. C'mon.

I thought Donovan played extremely hard the last 3 games. He was trying really hard. That doesn't mean he played great, but he was trying hard. The effort bit just isn't true.
 
LoPo said:
It's not about effort. Sure, he takes some plays off. But so does Steph.
Click to expand...
I don't generally think you have bad takes, and I overall often like your ideas about potential futures of this team, but TBH, I disagree on this. Donovan has made himself a target on defense, like the Lukas and Carmelos of the league, and I _definitely_ think this is effort. He has all the tools to be a decent defender, but he _isn't_. He sucks. He needs to step up his defensive game, or be a Stephon Marbury. It's very much about effort, in my mind. It's like that guy (can't remember right now) who said "nobody pays anyone no money to play defense", and he needs to rethink.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top