Jazz vs Lakers - Why the Jazz need to lose.

[green]

So, I bought into the hype. I was excited to watch last night's game. I was hoping for a Jazz win, to show we belonged. All that happened was proof that we need this team to lose this year. We do not have "That" guy. We do not have single player that you can give the ball to at the end of a game, clear out and know you will get points. Jefferson isn't that guy. Millsap is great, but too small to be that guy. Hayward is far from being that guy. The closest thing we have is Howard.

If we want this Jazz team to be different than the Jazz teams of the last 20+ years, we need a top 3 pick. If you are happy with 50 win seasons, and losing in the first or second round, then keep cheering for this team. BUT, take a long term look here.

Corbin is a good coach. What he has done from the first three games to last night is amazing. We have a great supporting cast for "that" guy. Big, big men. People that can come off the bench and score, rebound, we are playing good defense, etc. All this team is missing is "that" guy. So, join me Jazzfanz, in hoping for more games like last night, going toe to toe with big time teams, but losing, so we can get a top 3 pick and bring in the man who will bring the hardware to Salt Lake City.

 

[Dr. Jones]

So .. who is 'that' guy in the upcoming draft?

 

[green]

Hopefully he shows himself as the season progresses. That is the HUGE hole in my logic. We still have conference tourneys and NCAA tourney to find him. I remember how Roy was supposed to fall to the Jazz in the late teens...then the NCAA tourney happened.

 

[green]

Or, we win this year, make the second round of the playoffs and bring Deron back. That works as well.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

My money is on Millsap.

 

[Harambe]

So, I bought into the hype. I was excited to watch last night's game. I was hoping for a Jazz win, to show we belonged. All that happened was proof that we need this team to lose this year. We do not have "That" guy. We do not have single player that you can give the ball to at the end of a game, clear out and know you will get points. Jefferson isn't that guy. Millsap is great, but too small to be that guy. Hayward is far from being that guy. The closest thing we have is Howard.

If we want this Jazz team to be different than the Jazz teams of the last 20+ years, we need a top 3 pick. If you are happy with 50 win seasons, and losing in the first or second round, then keep cheering for this team. BUT, take a long term look here.

Corbin is a good coach. What he has done from the first three games to last night is amazing. We have a great supporting cast for "that" guy. Big, big men. People that can come off the bench and score, rebound, we are playing good defense, etc. All this team is missing is "that" guy. So, join me Jazzfanz, in hoping for more games like last night, going toe to toe with big time teams, but losing, so we can get a top 3 pick and bring in the man who will bring the hardware to Salt Lake City.

Excuse me, history would like a word with you. I'm bolding those who have won a title, and Italicizing those that are, or at one point were possibly worth a near max contract. Steve Francis is a stretch, but I counted him anyway.:

Top 3 picks in:
1997 - Tim Duncan, Keith Van Horn, Chauncey Billups
1998 - Michael Olowakandi, Mike Bibby, Raef Lafrentz
1999 - Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis
2000 - Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles
2001 - Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol
2002 - Yao Ming, Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy
2003 - LBJ, Darko Milicic, Carmelo Anthony
2004 - Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon
2005 - Andrew Bogut, Marvin WIlliams, Deron Williams
2006 - Andrea Bargnani, Lemarcus Aldridge, Adam Morrison
2007 - Greg Oden, Kevin Durrant, Al Horford
2008 - Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, OJ Mayo
2009 - Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, James Harden

22/39 are not worth anywhere near max contracts. That's 56%. Only 4 of the 39 listed here(about 10%) have helped their teams win a title.

Your logic appears flawed.

 

[franklin]

If we want this Jazz team to be different than the Jazz teams of the last 20+ years, we need a top 3 pick.

And how!

 

[green]

Excuse me, history would like a word with you. I'm bolding those who have won a title, and Italicizing those that are, or at one point were possibly worth a near max contract. Steve Francis is a stretch, but I counted him anyway.:

Top 3 picks in:
1997 - Tim Duncan, Keith Van Horn, Chauncey Billups
1998 - Michael Olowakandi, Mike Bibby, Raef Lafrentz
1999 - Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis
2000 - Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles
2001 - Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol
2002 - Yao Ming, Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy
2003 - LBJ, Darko Milicic, Carmelo Anthony
2004 - Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon
2005 - Andrew Bogut, Marvin WIlliams, Deron Williams
2006 - Andrea Bargnani, Lemarcus Aldridge, Adam Morrison
2007 - Greg Oden, Kevin Durrant, Al Horford
2008 - Derrick Rose, Michael Beasley, OJ Mayo
2009 - Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, James Harden

22/39 are not worth anywhere near max contracts. That's 56%. Only 4 of the 39 listed here(about 10%) have helped their teams win a title.

Your logic appears flawed.

The only way Utah gets that person is through the draft. The best odds of that happening through the draft is with a higher pick. It's a gamble, sure. But, I'll take it for a title. This lockout did nothing for us, so it's the game that has to be played.

There is only two ways this team will win a title: One, we lose, get a top pick and draft a superstar to take us there, or two, Deron comes back. That's it.

 

[northeast]

green makes a good point, but it's a little late to plan to lose now...
the Jazz kinda decided this wasn't going to happen when they added Howard to an already deep roster.

They do have guys now who could be "that guy"

 

[Stoked]

green makes a good point, but it's a little late to plan to lose now...
the Jazz kinda decided this wasn't going to happen when they added Howard to an already deep roster.

They do have guys now who could be "that guy"

How about we compromise? Get to the 2nd round of the playoffs and convince DWill to come back. Then get the #8 pick int he draft from GSW and get that needed SF.

Everyone happy?

 

[Harambe]

The only way Utah gets that person is through the draft. The best odds of that happening through the draft is with a higher pick. It's a gamble, sure. But, I'll take it for a title. This lockout did nothing for us, so it's the game that has to be played.

There is only two ways this team will win a title: One, we lose, get a top pick and draft a superstar to take us there, or two, Deron comes back. That's it.

Your logic is still flawed. You're totally ok with dropping a whole season, which risks re-affirming this "culture of loosing" people talk about, for a 25%, 21%, or 17% at getting the highest pick at any given time, all of which for 10% chance that that guy will be someone to help us win a championship?

Cuz... yeah. I won't tank the season for that. I would start youngins all year, and if it happens it happens, but I wouldn't purposely tank the season.

 

[vegas]

I am not holding out hope for that guy coming through the draft. The only way we get top 3 is the way we have before--through a trade. I think it is far more realistic for the Jazz have to be great at their system and that is their identity. Last night Howard and Milsap were able to hit shots down the stretch.

IMO Al was destined to have a bad game. Pau has his number as was discussed in pre-game. In other games he has been able to contribute in final stretches, and I expect he will have more through the year.

I can see a lot of guys stepping up through the season. I doesn't makes us championship material in the short term, but my expectations for this year were to be below .500. The team is already above what I thought they were capable of.

 

[northeast]

this would have been the perfect year to do a complete rebuild, but its too late now

 

[franklin]

Excuse me, history would like a word with you.

Your logic appears flawed.

Data pluck lolzz.

Let's go by championships:

Michael Jordan, #3 pick, 7 championships. Hawkeem Olajuwon was the #1 that year. That top 3 draft class won every championship from 1990 to 1998.
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2003-04 Detroit Pistons Billups #3, Wallace #4,
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2005-06 Miami Heat Shaq #1 pick, Wade should have gone 4th.
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2007-08 Boston Celtics Exception, but two #5 picks (Allen, Garnett), and Pierce was 10th.
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick
2010-11 Dallas Mavericks Tyson Chandler #2 pick, Jason Kidd #2 pick


There is a one year exception over the last 21.

 

[Harambe]

Data pluck lolzz.

Let's go by championships:

Michael Jordan, #3 pick, 7 championships. Hawkeem Olajuwon was the #1 that year. That top 3 draft class won every championship from 1990 to 1998.
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2003-04 Detroit Pistons Billups #3, Wallace #4,
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2005-06 Miami Heat Shaq #1 pick, Wade should have gone 4th.
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2007-08 Boston Celtics Exception, but two #5 picks (Allen, Garnett), and Pierce was 10th.
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick
2010-11 Dallas Mavericks Tyson Chandler #2 pick, Jason Kidd #2 pick


There is a one year exception over the last 21.

This only illustrates payoff if you happen to get a "that guy". Not the chances of getting "that guy".

 

[LogGrad98]

Um we actually have TWO top three picks right now. How many do we need exactly?

 

[Stoked]

Um we actually have TWO top three picks right now. How many do we need exactly?

My money is on the Jazz needing 5 3/4 #3 picks

 

[Ron Mexico]

Yes great plan. We have 2 #3 picks and 2 top ten picks in the last couple drafts. The best way to develop them is to let them play a lot but not at their best so we lose every game in hopes of a high pick. Hopefully we can break them of their confidence and any good habits they have so we can combine them with 1 more top ten pick and then suddenly we will be champions. I think we could sign Adam Morrison to give us another top 3 pick as well.

 

[green]

Your logic is still flawed. You're totally ok with dropping a whole season, which risks re-affirming this "culture of loosing" people talk about, for a 25%, 21%, or 17% at getting the highest pick at any given time, all of which for 10% chance that that guy will be someone to help us win a championship?

Cuz... yeah. I won't tank the season for that. I would start youngins all year, and if it happens it happens, but I wouldn't purposely tank the season.

First, I don't buy this "culture of losing" crap. You can have a team with 100+ years of losing, and when you get "that" guy, you have lost that culture. Durant lost his first two years, and that didn't hurt him. It took Jordan a couple years. Orlando was horrible until they drafted Shaq and Penny, then later on Howard. And so on. Culture of losing is a fallacy. If you have hard workers AND talent, you will win, no matter how many years you lost before.

 

[green]

This only illustrates payoff if you happen to get a "that guy". Not the chances of getting "that guy".

Your whole argument is that the Jazz should be happy with finishing in the 4-6 spot every year and getting bounced from the first round of the playoffs. Do you work for the Jazz?

Sure, Utah's chances of getting that guy who will win titles with a top 3 pick is slim. You said 10%. What is Utah's chances with the 9th pick? Less than 1%? Hayward is leading this team anytime soon. Neither is Favors, Kanter, Howard, Jefferson, Millsap, etc. We don't have that guy. We won't get that guy through free agency (unless somehow Deron comes back). A top 3 pick is the only realistic way the Jazz have a shot at a title.

You can be happy with NBA mediocrity. I want titles.