green
Well-Known Member
We need one Jordan, Duncan, Rose, Howard, Kobe, etc. Our top three picks ain't those guys.
Jazz vs Lakers - Why the Jazz need to lose.
- Thread starter green
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We need one Jordan, Duncan, Rose, Howard, Kobe, etc. Our top three picks ain't those guys.
green
Well-Known Member
Signed, Oklahoma City Thunder. Getting all those top 5 picks really hurt them. I don't buy this crap at all.
green
Well-Known Member
Amen. Why not pad the talent, hedge your bets this year? Why not add two top 10 picks, and quite possibly a top 3 pick in supposedly the deepest draft? Why are LA and Chi the only teams that can have multiple top 10 picks on their team? Why does Utah always have to be a bunch of scrappers, that fight hard but lose?
I want better. Let's get better.
No, my friend, it's not my point. My point is that there is little chance the route you pose will do anything for us. Lets go back to Franklins post for a second and look at the guys that did help build championships:
Michael Jordan, #3 pick, 7 championships. Hawkeem Olajuwon was the #1 that year. San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - These three won championships where they were drafted.
1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick - Shaq was drafted by the Orlando Magic and brought them nothing.
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - See above
2003-04 Detroit Pistons Billups #3(Drafted by Celtics), Wallace #4(Went undrafted)
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - See Above
2005-06 Miami Heat Shaq #1 pick(Orlando), Wade doesn't count, as he was not top 3.
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - See Above
2007-08 Boston Celtics Exception, but two #5 picks (Allen, Garnett[both drafted by t-wolves]), and Pierce was 10th(Yes, drafted by celtics, but 10th, not 3rd) .
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick - Drafted by Hawks
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick - Drafted by Hawks
2010-11 Dallas Mavericks Tyson Chandler #2 pick(Clipps), Jason Kidd(My the Mavs, so I'll allow it, but was in Phx, and NJ) #2 pick
Go ahead and throw Kobe in there too. He wasn't drafted by the Lakers either.
As you can see, drafting a top pick, AND someone that's going to lead a team to a title hasn't been true since MJ and Olajuwon(with the exception of Tim Duncan, and Jason Kidd). Trades and off season signings are to blame for the bulk of these titles.
curious, where were Dirk, Wade, and Kobe picked? I notice they are not on the lists, so I assume that the were not top 3.
The history shows as that teams that tank a year and get a top 3 pick they can win a title , and it's hard to get one without a top 3, but not impossible.
Also, you have a better chance of getting a superstar with a lower pick if it is not a big guy, and we've got 2 good big guys.
So the Jazz might find a great wing or point with a lower pick, that is easier to do.
so green and franklin make sense, but it is a moot point.
this was the year to do it, but it's too late.
The history shows as that teams that tank a year and get a top 3 pick they can win a title , and it's hard to get one without a top 3, but not impossible.
Also, you have a better chance of getting a superstar with a lower pick if it is not a big guy, and we've got 2 good big guys.
So the Jazz might find a great wing or point with a lower pick, that is easier to do.
so green and franklin make sense, but it is a moot point.
this was the year to do it, but it's too late.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
A good amount of those guys were ether signed as free agents or traded for look at the Pistons Billups and Wallace weren't drafted by Det. Pistons were a good team, but not a contender, they traded for Wallace, and he put them over the top. Bill ups was not drafted by the Pistons.
Let's look at the heat, a good team with Wade, but not contenders, they trade for Shaq, he puts them over the top.
The Celtics are a little different before the trade they were bad, they trade for Ray and Garnett, they are put over the top. If the Celtics keep their pick top 5 or six I believe, they are still looking for that tittle.
Dallas was a good team like the Jazz of the 90's they sign Chandler and win a tittle (as weird as that sounds) they just needed that one small defensive piece to put them over the top.
The lakers were horrible they signed Shaq, they become relevant. Then the Lakers do a draft day trade for Kobe, if the Lakers don't trade for Kobe, would they have been good enough to win a tittle who knows, but those two moves are the reason they won. The lakers didn't draft ether player.
The Lakers again... Call it the shaqless era. When Shaq left to win the heat a tittle the Kobe Lakers were a one and done playoff team, they get Gasol for almost free. Gasol puts the lakers over the top.
That leaves us with the Spurs... Yes I know what the trolls will say they drafted Duncan, and that's what put them over the top because they had the top pick, but let's not forget the Spurs were a perennial playoff team. The year before the Duncan draft they had freak injuries to There core players including David Robinson who missed the whole year with injury. There best player was a way over the hill "human highlight film" remember him? The Spus didn't even have the worst record, got lucky and won the lottery. Most teams that pick first have bad bad teams. The Spurs already had a super star in Robinson that's how that pick won them a tittle. The spurs are the luckiest team ever, and lightning usually doesn't strike twice in the same spot, if you know what I mean. Yes I know what the trolls will say next, but but they won championships after Robinson left. Don't forget the Jazz let the spurs draft Parker 29th I think it was, and drafted Ginobili with one of the last draft picks in the second round, again as I said before there isn't a luckier team in the history of pro sports.
One last thought....
How did Cleavland do drafting James #1, how about the Clippers do drafting high in the lottery all those years. How many playoffs did they play in, funny thing is this year they sign Butler, sign Billups and trade for Paul, for the first time ever many are dubbing them contenders. The Clippers realized that their #1 pick wasn't going to win them anything alone.
The Jazz have the built a good core and will continue to do so with the Warriors pick, be it this year or the next. The jazz in my opinion need to just ad small pieces the Jazz do have assets, Al, the Memo trade exception Harris, GS pick, let's use these assets to bring in some players to play roles on this team around the core we have now. We could trade Harris for expiring contracts to free up money for Howard, we Can trade Al for what ever we need. His value is going up right now. Most importantly let's develop Favors, Hayward, Burks, and Kanter, get rid of Cj. We need to develop this young core into winners, and put other players around them to support them build winning team atmosphere. That will make them want to resign. And their for build a dynasty. Yes I said it a dynasty. You don't do that by simply making the lotto here and there.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
When was the last time the LA had a top five pick they have ether traded or signed great free agents the Knicks traded for Antheny and signed Amare as a free agent. Name one top pick that is on their team they drafted.
Now look dude.. I shot your idea to s**t because it was a bad idea, not because I don't like you. Don't make this personal and call me a "sissy fraidy ninny cat", because I promise I will not be following you to the monkey bars to prove anything.
But if you want a counter proposal, I'll give you two.
First, make our market bigger. Obviously we can't exactly force people to move to Utah, and we can't force people to become basketball fans. But we can advertize in areas around that don't have a team anywhere near. We can hold exhibition games in, say, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming. Expand out Jr Jazz basketball to these states too. After we get some excitement going, we COULD get a hold of the local affiliate in those areas and broadcast our games. This is a huge, expensive, long project...but even if it took off a little bit we'd be much better off in the long run.
The other option, lets gamble even more thank tanking a season. Lets continue on, but then just throw luxury tax to the dogs. Focus on, no matter what, forgetting monetary restraints, getting to the Finals. That's where the money is anyway... Your team's share of the NBA on ABC for those final 7 games. Get a front office and coaching staff together that the LHM group believes in 140%(which I honestly don't believe they do right now) and give them garbage bags full of cash to get an EXTREMELY solid team this year right around the draft, and have them work together once or twice a week all summer.
So there's two ideas that are both better than "Welp... lets just continue to tank seasons until we get 'that guy'". And yet probably had just as much thought put into them.
green
Well-Known Member
So, you don't shoot for the stars, what happens? We get a Deron, can't win a title and he leaves after 6 years, we start all over again with Favors.
green
Well-Known Member
Those actually aren't bad ideas at all. They just take too long. This isn't about tanking seasons until we get "that" guy. This is about playing young guys and not being worried about losing ONE season. The Jazz are in a position they have NEVER been in. We have Hayward (9th pick), Burks (12th pick), Favors (3rd pick) and Kanter (3rd pick). We aren't a title contending team, this is a shortened season, the deepest draft since whenever you feel the last deepest draft was and we have two potential lottery picks. Our starting five in 2-3 years could be all top 10 picks. We would have a LA, Detriot Pistons, Boston team. How could you not want that? Why is everyone so opposed to being even better than OKC?
I don't get it. Every so often in life, you are presented with unique opportunities, that depending on your choices, that can completely change your future. We are back in the early 80's, you have a chance to buy Apple stock or put your money in a money market. Neither is wrong choice, one will give you good returns (4-6 place and at best a second round exit. Every 10-15 years you get a WCF appearance) or one will make you the richest guy on the block. Take your pick.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Guns don't have that kind of range. My point is has a team ever tanked from the beginning to the end of a season when they had a good team, like we do. Yes, we have a good team now.
I can see Favors, Hayward, and burks, and Kanter as a gig 4. I read a tweet from Locke saying Kanters rebounding at a higher rate then Love per 48 minutes. Oh and Millsap makes big 5. This team needs to win now.
Here's your EXACT WORDS:
green said:
Where in that do you site playing the rookies/youngins? I really don't see where it's at. All I see is "Blah blah blah, we don't have that guy, blah blah blah, lets continue to lose our games". There isn't anything pertaining to development at all, just hope that we become guy waiting for his big break.
If you believe in this rebuild, you have to believe that this team will be like the 2004 Pistons, not the 90's Bulls, Kobe Lakers, Showtime Lakers, Duncan Spurs, or Bird Celtics.
I believe that if you play basketball the right way and have above average players at every position, you can win it all.
I also believe that brand of basketball is much, much more entertaining to watch.
I believe that if you play basketball the right way and have above average players at every position, you can win it all.
I also believe that brand of basketball is much, much more entertaining to watch.
I'm not reading the rest because this entire thread is ridiculous. El Roach tried using an argument that getting a top three pick fails more often than not. I showed that it's nearly impossible to win a title without a top 3 pick. Both are spurious and that's the point.
Every one of us knows you have to have an MVP caliber player and a kick *** surrounding cast to win a championship. If you think we have that then you probably agree with Roach. If you don't then you probably agree with green, cause the chances of the Jazz luring the next Shaq to Salt Lake Beach like we're Miami is slim to none.
I am on the side of Green here. Now I don't agree with the idea of simply tanking for the purpose of tanking but I want the Jazz to play the young guys even more. AJ/CJ will not even be on the team in three years. It NEVER hurts to have more talent. Worse case scenario is that the Jazz can use some of their young guys "assets" to bring in the "it" guy or attract that type of player.
Playing the young guy gives them experience. They only get a loser mentality if they already have it. Effective coaching should keep guys from getting too down on themselves. I can tell you want erodes a player confidence is getting taken out of the game because it is time to put back a vet who isn't performing. I worry more about Kanter, Favors, and Burks might start thinking about getting theirs or start pressing because they know they are going to be replaced after a few minutes.
Playing AJ 40 minutes when he wasn't playing well does absolutely nothing for the future of the team. It didn't even bring us a win. So the Jazz get a few more wins lose their pick which could be 1-14 pick and GS could tank and get their pick this year. I can only imagine if we drafted KD and he had to sit two years on the bench because Sloan/Ty wanted him to earn it. I can only imagine if the Jazz were able to get two guys like Davis/MKG/Barnes/Drummond etc. with the guys we have. Then they could trade AJ/Harris and the Trade exception to get the player they need to lead the team.
Playing the young guy gives them experience. They only get a loser mentality if they already have it. Effective coaching should keep guys from getting too down on themselves. I can tell you want erodes a player confidence is getting taken out of the game because it is time to put back a vet who isn't performing. I worry more about Kanter, Favors, and Burks might start thinking about getting theirs or start pressing because they know they are going to be replaced after a few minutes.
Playing AJ 40 minutes when he wasn't playing well does absolutely nothing for the future of the team. It didn't even bring us a win. So the Jazz get a few more wins lose their pick which could be 1-14 pick and GS could tank and get their pick this year. I can only imagine if we drafted KD and he had to sit two years on the bench because Sloan/Ty wanted him to earn it. I can only imagine if the Jazz were able to get two guys like Davis/MKG/Barnes/Drummond etc. with the guys we have. Then they could trade AJ/Harris and the Trade exception to get the player they need to lead the team.
I guess the issue I have with this notion of tanking (let's call it what it is) is that in this particular draft, I don't see 'that guy'. They don't come around that often, and some just occur despite how high the pick is. Andre Drummond is the closest thing I see to world-beater talent, and I'm not sure that he ever becomes that force in offensive way and the Jazz have already invested very highly in two guys that played ten minutes a piece last night so BIG AL could go 5-17 (7-33 against the Lakers just this year) and blow a chance to win the game. That's a total tangent though.
If there is 'that guy' in this draft, I don't think it's obvious who it is.
If there is 'that guy' in this draft, I don't think it's obvious who it is.
Hmmm, just what I have been saying all along. Must make you feel dirty to agree with me
Another thing to consider is all the busts that have happened with lottery players. I'm never for tanking a season. I'm am enjoying the games now. If the team starts to suck, it's hard for me to enjoy. I don't want to wait for next year or the year after.
As far as winning a title. Sure, I'd like to see it. But lets be realistic. We all know what David Stern wants, and doesn't want. What he doesn't want is a league where Utah is the champion. He wants LA, Boston, and Miami. It's just the way it is.\
Yes, I think it is possible that the Jazz someday do win it all, but I'm not going to obsess over it all year every year. And I certainly won't stop enjoying Jazz games just because we aren't the absolute best team in the league
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