Game Thread Nov 03, 2025 05:30PM MT: Utah Jazz @ Boston Celtics

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Idk about you, but those things have a lot to do with winning and losing. Performance on the court is going to drop if we shift more minutes to young players vs vets, but I'm ok with that because I believe you need to give young players minutes in order to get better. I do not think they will improve their awareness and bbiq more on the bench than they will on the court.

77 of 240 minutes were played by non-core vets in the Boston win.

 

[KqWIN]

77 of 240 minutes were played by non-core vets in the Boston win.

OK....Do you have a response to the post you quoted?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

OK....Do you have a response to the post you quoted?

You didnt say anything.

Ive repeated it multiple times. The year isnt about developing everyone. It's about developing what rises to the top. Some are going to get left behind. That's the reality of the situation. Utah will start playing more young players when they really want to start losing games and they will get another chance to really prove themselves.

 

[KqWIN]

You didnt say anything.

Ive repeated it multiple times. The year isnt about developing everyone. It's about developing what rises to the top. Some are going to get left behind. That's the reality of the situation. Utah will start playing more young players when they really want to start losing games and they will get another chance to really prove themselves.

You made a post about Cody/Brice not playing, said it had nothing to do with W/L, then listed a bunch of stuff about W/L. I agree with the points you made about them making it harder to win, I just don't care about the W.

If you don't care about developing those players, to each their own. I care about developing them more than I care about playing vets or winning games. And I don't really see the point of waiting to do it if they are going to do it anyways. The best time to start that was yesterday.

 

[Zombie]

Not playing Cody/Brice has nothing to do with W/L.

Cody actively makes everyone worse on offense when he plays (or at least that was the case last season). Brice does the same thing, but on defense (and for his offensive talent he has not been able to really facilitate the offensive flow as the team performs far worse when he's on the court and has been prone to going back to bad habits of overdribbling and not moving the ball fast enough). Even Ace, with his ball-hogery tendencies, has shown a higher rate of growth in passing the ball quickly than Brice has.

When Harkless is out there busting his *** on defense, that's making everyone around him better, on both ends. Same thing with Svi. While I dont think Svi is very good, he has played a smart/controlled floor game this season and he's actually capable of putting up some defensive resistance.

I think Svi will eventually lose his starting job to someone, because at the end of the day he just isnt very good, but for now I'm fine with him playing the minutes he gets because he is out there helping others be better, or at least not actively getting in anyone's way of being able to get better.

And I know some people will say "Well start Brice and let him play with better players" but Brice is going to get absolutely cooked by NBA starting wings and is going to greatly compromise your defense.

I think this exactly right. Like yeah, maybe it's hampering Brice's development that Svi is getting minutes over him, but it's probably to the developmental benefit of our other young guys on the court.

Just as an example, if you're trying to get your guys to learn how to play good team defense, make the right reads etc. as a matter of habit, but there's one guy in the lineup that's just getting cooked over and over again causing breakdowns, that is actually hurting the development of the other guys on the court.

I just think it's reductive to say, "well Brice isn't getting minutes right now so I guess Hardy doesn't care to develop him and is more interested in early season wins." There's a bit more to the picture than that imo.

 

[KqWIN]

I think this exactly right. Like yeah, maybe it's hampering Brice's development that Svi is getting minutes over him, but it's probably to the developmental benefit of our other young guys on the court.

Just as an example, if you're trying to get your guys to learn how to play good team defense, make the right reads etc. as a matter of habit, but there's one guy in the lineup that's just getting cooked over and over again causing breakdowns, that is actually hurting the development of the other guys on the court.

I just think it's reductive to say, "well Brice isn't getting minutes right now so I guess Hardy doesn't care to develop him and is more interested in early season wins." There's a bit more to the picture than that imo.

So this is actually a fair point. What you're saying is, the W/L doesn't matter, but playing in a better environment does increase development. That's fair....it just doesn't make sense to say those things don't effect W/L when that's precisely what they do.

My counters to that would be that:

1) Svi is not some world beater changing the dynamic of the team. We're really not looking at that much difference in quality of play.....well maybe for Cody. Someone like Lauri would present a different dynamic and a different question to ask. But Svi isn't even a Collins/Sexton level player, who I didn't care to give minutes to either.

2) Svi primarily plays only with the starters. So if there are development gains when playing next to good players, they are being used on him and not other young players.

From a pure development standpoint, I don't like what we're doing and would prefer more minutes for all the young players, though I hear what you're saying. When you add in the implications of this draft and the protections of the pick it's a no brainer. Do I really think Hardy is doing this for the best of the team's development? Not really. It's not black and white, but I think he just wanted to win that game and prefers to play vets.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I guess some people have trouble reading lmao. No one said these decisions dont affect W/L. We just said these decisions arent made because of W/L's. They are made to raise quality of play so they players we actually need to develop are developed. If you get left behind because you cant hang, you get left behind.

 

[HermanG]

So this is actually a fair point. What you're saying is, the W/L doesn't matter, but playing in a better environment does increase development. That's fair....it just doesn't make sense to say those things don't effect W/L when that's precisely what they do.

My counters to that would be that:

1) Svi is not some world beater changing the dynamic of the team. We're really not looking at that much difference in quality of play.....well maybe for Cody. Someone like Lauri would present a different dynamic and a different question to ask. But Svi isn't even a Collins/Sexton level player, who I didn't care to give minutes to either.

2) Svi primarily plays only with the starters. So if there are development gains when playing next to good players, they are being used on him and not other young players.

From a pure development standpoint, I don't like what we're doing and would prefer more minutes for all the young players, though I hear what you're saying. When you add in the implications of this draft and the protections of the pick it's a no brainer. Do I really think Hardy is doing this for the best of the team's development? Not really. It's not black and white, but I think he just wanted to win that game and prefers to play vets.

Is good vs bad basketball completely unrelated to "how to develop guys the right way", or can you see a connection there?

 

[KqWIN]

Is good vs bad basketball completely unrelated to "how to develop guys the right way", or can you see a connection there?

Is minutes and opportunity completely unrelated to "how to develop guys the right way", or can you see a connection there? You're literally responding to a post of me recognizing that connection, but I don't think that is outweighed by minutes and opportunity. I gave my reasons why, look at 1) and 2). When you add the tanking aspect of it in, it's a no brainer decision in my eyes. Did I just repeat exactly what I said in that post? Yes I did, hopefully you read this time.

Look, if people want to die on this island that playing Svi is best for development, agree to disagree. I have nothing else to say about this topic.

 

[Zombie]

What you're saying is, the W/L doesn't matter

This is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that W/L's probably aren't the only consideration when it comes to Will Hardy's lineup decisions, and some of those decisions may be to the developmental benefit of some players and at the expense of others.

1) Svi is not some world beater changing the dynamic of the team. We're really not looking at that much difference in quality of play.....well maybe for Cody. Someone like Lauri would present a different dynamic and a different question to ask. But Svi isn't even a Collins/Sexton level player, who I didn't care to give minutes to either.

I don't think whether Svi is a world beater or not has any bearing on what we're talking about. He is playing his role better than Brice is, and that is helpful to the other players on the court.

2) Svi primarily plays only with the starters. So if there are development gains when playing next to good players, they are being used on him and not other young players.

When healthy, the starters have included Walker, Flip and Keyonte - young players very much in need of development.

 

[HermanG]

Is minutes and opportunity completely unrelated to "how to develop guys the right way", or can you see a connection there? You're literally responding to a post of me recognizing that connection, but I don't think that is outweighed by minutes and opportunity. I gave my reasons why, look at 1) and 2). When you add the tanking aspect of it in, it's a no brainer decision in my eyes. Did I just repeat exactly what I said in that post? Yes I did, hopefully you read this time.

Look, if people want to die on this island that playing Svi is best for development, agree to disagree. I have nothing else to say about this topic.

So good basketball is relevant to development, but minutes matter more. Got it. Hard disagree but whatever.

No one cares about Svi. Replace him with any placeholder who just plays how Hardy wants him to play. Unfortunately the two kids that are left out apparently dont, which is why they are left out.

I dont care about developing Cody at this point. I'm not quite sure what are the problems with Brice but obviously he isnt doing the right things according to Hardy. If the product looks good then its all the better for Ace, Key, Walker, TH, Flip and WCJ. I dont care if we lose 100% of development for Cody and Brice if we gain 5% development boost for those other guys... as long as they identified the right guys. We arent trying to maximize the amount of mid guys we build here.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

So good basketball is relevant to development, but minutes matter more. Got it. Hard disagree but whatever.

No one cares about Svi. Replace him with any placeholder who just plays how Hardy wants him to play. Unfortunately the two kids that are left out apparently dont, which is why they are left out.

I dont care about developing Cody at this point. I'm not quite sure what are the problems with Brice but obviously he isnt doing the right things according to Hardy. If the product looks good then its all the better for Ace, Key, Walker, TH, Flip and WCJ. I dont care if we lose 100% of development for Cody and Brice if we gain 5% development boost for those other guys... as long as they identified the right guys. We arent trying to maximize the amount of mid guys we build here.

Brice just isnt checking enough boxes at the moment. All he really adds out there is shooting. If he doesnt learn to play hard, it's going to be hard for him to earn minutes over guys who check more boxes and bring more intensity.

He's clearly the worst defender on the team. The Jazz have treated him like a baby defensively for the last two seasons (which why I always said it was funny when people railed on Keyonte while he was having 10x harder matchups to deal with than Brice), giving him the easiest matchups and generally hiding him. He has to step it up and be passable on defense to the point where he isnt blowing every the Jazz want to do on that end.

 

[KqWIN]

This is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that W/L's probably aren't the only consideration when it comes to Will Hardy's lineup decisions, and some of those decisions may be to the developmental benefit of some players and at the expense of others.


I don't think whether Svi is a world beater or not has any bearing on what we're talking about. He is playing his role better than Brice is, and that is helpful to the other players on the court.


When healthy, the starters have included Walker, Flip and Keyonte - young players very much in need of development.

So just one last word on this because I think you're actually engaging in good faith discussion. I'd agree that Hardy's decisions aren't black and white. But I would say the driving factor in his decision to play prospects less is more related to the W than for player development. At the very least, he's given more care for the W that I would want. For me the right amount to care about the W is 0% or negative given the draft situation. I have a good feeling that there will be some point down the line where we had less wins than more.

I think Svi's ability is pretty central to the discussion. The whole argument is that his better play creates a better environment for others, so you have to weigh his level vs the level of prospect you're taking minutes away from. A replacement level player like Svi is going to affect the environment less than an all star like Lauri. It's more about where everyone falls in the priority order for those minutes. You're not gonna put Tonje in front of Lauri, but you're also not gonna put Anderson in front of Ace. Currently, Svi is far ahead of Ace, Hendricks, Walt, and Flip in minutes.

We'll see how tonight goes. If Collier is available and truly ready to play, whose minutes does he get? Could be Svi, Harkless, or a little bit of both. For me, Svi would be below all of the prospects. I'd play Brice, Cody, Collier, Harkless, and give the guys already playing more minutes before I gave Svi minutes. I did not think for one moment that we missed out on player development last season when Svi did not play, nor did I feel like we got more when he did.

 

[fishonjazz]

I guess some people have trouble reading lmao. No one said these decisions dont affect W/L. We just said these decisions arent made because of W/L's. They are made to raise quality of play so they players we actually need to develop are developed. If you get left behind because you cant hang, you get left behind.

I feel like svi can't hang but isn't getting left behind.

 

[fishonjazz]

I feel like svi can't hang but isn't getting left behind.

Like for instance, svi is considered a "shooter". That is his main skill.
He is shooting 40% from the field and 29% from 3 this season. He gets to the line 0.3 times per game. 1.6 assists. 3 rebounds.
He is 4th on the team in minutes behind Lauri, walker and key. (27 minutes per game)
I can't really see why he isn't getting left behind with his poor play other than him being 27 years old (which to me only adds to the reasons he should be left behind)

Brice, Cody, Clayton, flip and Hendricks, all young developmental players who are all getting way less minutes than svi, have all been better shooters than Svi even though svi is looked at as a shooter and the reason he is on the court.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I feel like svi can't hang but isn't getting left behind.

Svi hanging

 

[fishonjazz]

Svi hanging

Yep he flipped the script tonight.
I bet Brice could have a nice shooting night every now and then too though.