davidbenoit
Well-Known Member
@DJJazzyJody Paul Millsap (stomach virus) and Devin Harris (ankle) are game-time decisions tonight vs. Warriors.
your move GSW
your move GSW
What do you want to happen friday night?
- Thread starter sgjazzfan
- Start date
BluesRocker
Banned
Anyone who thinks making the playoffs is better must have down syndrome.
Here is the deal....
This most likely is the last time in a while that we will be picking in the lottery. Because we assume that our young guys are going to be getting better and we should start making regular playoff appearances. At least we hope so. We don't want to be taking steps backwards in a couple years. Once this ship takes off we want it to stay in the running and only have to make minor changes or add a FA here and there. Plus we already have a hard time adding good players through FA so we are going to need a stacked team moving forward. So again, this could be the last time we are picking high in a while. We should embrace this period in Jazz history. We should except that right now we are not championship contenders and we are in rebuilding mode.
Geeeeez! What is so hard to figure out about that?
Here is the deal....
This most likely is the last time in a while that we will be picking in the lottery. Because we assume that our young guys are going to be getting better and we should start making regular playoff appearances. At least we hope so. We don't want to be taking steps backwards in a couple years. Once this ship takes off we want it to stay in the running and only have to make minor changes or add a FA here and there. Plus we already have a hard time adding good players through FA so we are going to need a stacked team moving forward. So again, this could be the last time we are picking high in a while. We should embrace this period in Jazz history. We should except that right now we are not championship contenders and we are in rebuilding mode.
Geeeeez! What is so hard to figure out about that?
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
hey, stoked, i'm not another "you disagree with me so you do not understand (insert any god damn topic)" person. i've been a condescending SOB on these boards for 10 years. just want credit for all my experience at being a douche.
that said, you're allowed to disagree. i just think several decades of NBA history bear me out on this. teams that accept losing dno't magically get better because they add one 20-22 year old to their team. that crap gets teams stuck in a major rut of loserdom. disagree with me? that's fine. but if you go ask warriors fans, wizards fans, kings fans, etc, my guess is they'll agree with me.
How would you define "accept losing"? Is there an affidavit they signed? Are you talking players, management or both? OKC doesn't seem to be affected by it, ATL didn't make the playoffs for 9 seasons but have been in the last 4. Then, once that winning environment was established in places like Cleveland, NO, Phoenix, Portland etc what happened? They didn't keep up on their Winners Club dues or read the monthly news letter?
The NBA is cyclical and we, as a fan base, have been lucky enough to have a hell of a GM, IMO, that keeps us from seeing the worst the NBA can give a franchise. That said, and as someone said a few days ago on this board, I'd rather a full rebuild, one that is fully ready to compete at the very tip top of the NBA than a half cocked rebuild that only allows us hope for a middle seed at best. Will either guarantee us a championship? No. But I'd bet a "fully stocked" one will give us a MUCH better chance............especially in this draft. (and yes, its deep because some dick on a website told me so, and not at all because I watch a ton of NCAA bball....)
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Getting your *** handed to you in the first round doesn't mean you won't just get stuck being an automatic first round exit for mutiple years. If you don't believe me, just go ask Wolves fans.
Always trying to win now, with no regard as to how it affects the team in the future, can end up biting you in the *** in a big way. If you don't believe me, then just go ask Knicks fans.
What this comes down to, isn't whether or not playoff experience is more than valuable than a draft pick. Sometimes it is. And if we were talking the difference between getting a pick 3-4 spots higher, I'd be on the side of making the playoffs and taking the lower pick. However, in this specific postion Utah is in at the moment, they've got one last chance this year to stack the deck by gaining some valuable assets at a crucial time in building the team. To me, missing the playoffs for one more year doesn't even come close to losing this particular opportunity to stack the deck.
Winning this game tonight could be the difference in losing BOTH picks this year. But judging from your arguments in this thread, I'm guessing you would argue that getting bumped in 4-5 games as an 8th seed is more valuable than 4 lotto picks. Why, because we don't need 4 more rookies. Nevermind the obvious fact that these picks could be used in multiple ways to improve the team. It seems that everyone making the argument that 8th seed experience is more valuable, goes out of their way to show the value of these picks as simply another rookie that isn't needed, and completely ignore the other possible uses. Pretty clear to me that these arguments aren't being made objectively.
Nothing wrong with wanting playoffs, just so long as you don't pee on my shoes and tell me it's raining.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
i definte "accept losing" as precisely what you said earlier -- (paraphrase) "i won't cry if the jazz lose tonight."
i think losing SHOULD bother the jazz. i'm not saying they should (or could) win every game, just that if you want a team that's capable of a title at some point, then you have to have guys who are never going to say, "oh well, no big deal that we just got beat on our own floor to the crappy warriors."
Haha, WHO IS SAYING T H E Y ARE SAYING THAT?!? You quoted me as your example of the Utah Jazz or any other organization excepting losing? While flattered I think you're assigning me more power than you should.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
freak, those were two pretty crappy examples. minnesota eventually became an elite team and reached the conference finals, despite not being able to add players via the draft for several years. and using the knicks as an example of a team who was trying to "win now at all costs"?? what knicks have you been watching for the last decade and a half?
but on to the broader point... no, i'm not saying i would give up four lottery picks to get our guys some playoff experience, but at least now we're asking the right questions. my problem with 90% of the conversation around "should the jazz give up on their season" is that nobody fails to recognize that having a playoff-tested favors, a playoff-tested hayward, a playoff-tested burks, etc. IS IN FACT AN ASSET.
is it more of an asset than a 14th pick? than a 12th pick? than a 7th pick? than a 0.4% chance at the top pick? than multiple lottery picks? i'm not saying i have that calculus all shaped in my head... but i do know that recognizing the value of playoff experience is an asset is central to having a decent discussion about this, and too many posters are slow to recognize that THAT's what we're weighing here.
it's not pick 12-14 vs. no pick. if that were as simple as the decision was, then yeah, it's a no-brainer.
it's pick 12-14 vs. an opportunity to get our future core some experience they'll need the next 5 times they're battling in the postseason. i just think we should frame the argument right.
but on to the broader point... no, i'm not saying i would give up four lottery picks to get our guys some playoff experience, but at least now we're asking the right questions. my problem with 90% of the conversation around "should the jazz give up on their season" is that nobody fails to recognize that having a playoff-tested favors, a playoff-tested hayward, a playoff-tested burks, etc. IS IN FACT AN ASSET.
is it more of an asset than a 14th pick? than a 12th pick? than a 7th pick? than a 0.4% chance at the top pick? than multiple lottery picks? i'm not saying i have that calculus all shaped in my head... but i do know that recognizing the value of playoff experience is an asset is central to having a decent discussion about this, and too many posters are slow to recognize that THAT's what we're weighing here.
it's not pick 12-14 vs. no pick. if that were as simple as the decision was, then yeah, it's a no-brainer.
it's pick 12-14 vs. an opportunity to get our future core some experience they'll need the next 5 times they're battling in the postseason. i just think we should frame the argument right.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
wow, you just shifted the whole argument... again.
no i'm not saying the jazz feel that way. i was explaining why i'm not ok with YOUR approach. i want the jazz to win, tonight and every other chance they get. and you're absolutely right, i believe the jazz want to win, too. at least the players and coaches.
BluesRocker
Banned
I think there is a whole lot of confusion about this argument between the tank crowd and playoff crowd.
The Tank Crowd isn't suggesting that the Jazz FO, coaches, and players try to lose games. That would be absurd. We are all just saying send a couple vets packing, get the young guys in there, and see what happens. If we win and go to the playoffs great, but if we dont then great too. You play the young guys knowing that you probably won't make the playoffs. You still encourage them to try to win. But arent afraid of not making the playoffs because a couple years in the lottery at this point won't hurt the franchise or development of the team but infact will probably help it.
Big difference between the Jazz purposely losing games and them losing games because they are playing their young talent that need to develop. I would argue that it is actually worse to have them ride the bench and watch other people play. Playoffs or not. I wouldn't say they shouldn't have some vets around them either but not a whole bunch that take up all the minutes.
The Tank Crowd isn't suggesting that the Jazz FO, coaches, and players try to lose games. That would be absurd. We are all just saying send a couple vets packing, get the young guys in there, and see what happens. If we win and go to the playoffs great, but if we dont then great too. You play the young guys knowing that you probably won't make the playoffs. You still encourage them to try to win. But arent afraid of not making the playoffs because a couple years in the lottery at this point won't hurt the franchise or development of the team but infact will probably help it.
Big difference between the Jazz purposely losing games and them losing games because they are playing their young talent that need to develop. I would argue that it is actually worse to have them ride the bench and watch other people play. Playoffs or not. I wouldn't say they shouldn't have some vets around them either but not a whole bunch that take up all the minutes.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
This is how I felt to start the season. A little late now.
But you have to know it "must" be one extreme or the other. If you don't want the team to win then you must be advocating the team losing on purpose. You can't possibly be advocating wishing the team had developed their young players at the risk of losing.
BluesRocker
Banned
How many small market teams have had a big FA come over to lead them to a championship?