Hayward & Jazz - not close to agreement (Hayward leaving 4/40 on the table)

[Dr. Jones]

Haven't read any posts.. sorry.... but $10MM is too much.

 

[b_line]

Last year, playing off-ball with the first unit or running the floor with a well rested second unit, he shot .435. If he's going to be initiating like he has in the preseason, and playing against starters, that number should go down (look at his preseason numbers).

Bringing up Rudy Gay is appropriate. He's a player who was never quite able to get over the hump and become an elite iso/PnR scorer. He's still much better than Gordo, but everyone recognizes at this point that he's ridiculously overpaid.

And you're asking the wrong questions. The Jazz should be concerned about maximizing their assets. Gordo is neither an elite, physical shut-down perimeter defender nor a guy who can get you buckets when the defense is set/the offense breaks down/the shot clock is running short. He's a terrific off-ball scorer, a good defender, a glue guy. The problem with that is, to contend you need that top end talent (Favors may provide this in the form of rebounding and rim protection, which is why he shoul dbe paid more than Gordo). Once you have that talent, a player like Gordo becomes a luxury. That is, the drop-off in value as complementary players from Gordo to Redick/Dudley/Martell Webster/Danny Green is not significant.

Yes, if you don't care about contending, and only want to make sure you have enough talent not to suck, making risky moves in favor of safe ones (trading Gordo v. overpaying Gordo) gives you a better chance of getting you where you want to go. If that's what the Jazz plan is, I have no idea why they didn't re-sign Paul Millsap and Demarre Carroll, however.

With that said, the Jazz FO likely has a much better idea of how valued Gordo is by other teams. It may still be better to overpay now if you know you can get a good return in a trade at the deadline/in the summer.

Yeah 43% is terrible. For some reason I thought it was closer to 45%. I must have been looking at his career number.

I guess if the jazz are planning on keeping him for value in a trade, then a front loaded deal would be ideal. Then what is the top end to pay? I guess for me, it would be just a little less than what favors got.

The elite level talent you mentioned is, to me, one of the most important things. Every high level player should have one or two things they do on an elite level, right? Hayward just does a lot of things above average, except 3pt shooting, which he approaches elite level. But like you said, so does redick, and a number of other players.

For me, I think like $12mm per is max I would go.

 

[Guitaro]

This is correct. Not hiding it. Have come to like the Jazz in this time. 3 years now and I have watched EVERY game and gone to 4. So what ? I follow players on many teams. And yes, when Hayward leaves I will
follow him with his new team. Reality of sports these days. No loyalty anywhere.

This does not change the fact that he will get 12-13 as a RFA, easy. If this Jazz want him pay it. If they don't , walk away.

I think it strains the relationship not to be extended now. Creates ill will (no matter what athlete says, they want the extension now, they have ego)

It's a business call and it is a business. All I read and hear is that many GM's will jump at Hayward in summer.

Don't forget, Hayward is a high IQ player being coached by "not the sharpest tool in the shed". Hayward goes to a smart coach, look out, All-star...easy.

I'm curious if all this talk by other GM's and coaches could be considered tampering, because there are contract talks going on right now and also because he's not their player?

 

[Stoked]

Haven't read any posts.. sorry.... but $10MM is too much.

If the Jazz land two good picks suddenly Hayward become very important. He will be that all important glue guy. He will make those around him better. His off ball movement, spot shooting, handling, passing and ability to play D bring it all together. If you have Wiggins, Burke, Kanter, Favors, Gobert and another rookie I see Hayward tying it all together.

 

[Guitaro]

Yeah 43% is terrible. For some reason I thought it was closer to 45%. I must have been looking at his career number.

I guess if the jazz are planning on keeping him for value in a trade, then a front loaded deal would be ideal. Then what is the top end to pay? I guess for me, it would be just a little less than what favors got.

The elite level talent you mentioned is, to me, one of the most important things. Every high level player should have one or two things they do on an elite level, right? Hayward just does a lot of things above average, except 3pt shooting, which he approaches elite level. But like you said, so does redick, and a number of other players.

For me, I think like $12mm per is max I would go.

I agree. Although, $12 million is pushing it for a guy that is good but much more replaceable than a big guy. All wing players, outside of Superstars, are replaceable.

The thing is, Hayward is looking pretty great right now because the rest of our team kinda stinks right now. They'll have great games here and there but then stink the next game.

Paul George is a better player than Hayward and should make more $ than him. In fact, I compare Hayward to someone like BRuss or Shandon Anderson but with better understanding of the game.

Finally, Hayward needs to think of the team. If every players asks for $12-13 million then we'll have a huge payroll for an under-producing team. Not a great formula for success.

 

[Qman]

If the Jazz land two good picks suddenly Hayward become very important. He will be that all important glue guy. He will make those around him better. His off ball movement, spot shooting, handling, passing and ability to play D bring it all together. If you have Wiggins, Burke, Kanter, Favors, Gobert and another rookie I see Hayward tying it all together.

Which works if Hayward is at the right salary.

Hayward is going to average about 18 ppg, 4 apg and 3 rpg. However he is going to have 3 topg and shot 39% from the field. I think in the end his value is going to come down a little. And if not you can work out a sign and trade.

 

[Guitaro]

Which works if Hayward is at the right salary.

Hayward is going to average about 18 ppg, 4 apg and 3 rpg. However he is going to have 3 topg and shot 39% from the field. I think in the end his value is going to come down a little. And if not you can work out a sign and trade.

That's the thing, his shooting % and turnovers aren't helping his or his agent's claim that he deserves more than what's being offered. Just look at other teams who paid their players $10 million or more and how many of them are happy for doing so? How many of those same wing players are constant discussion for trades?

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Why would the Jazz offer more than that right now? If Hayward has a great season, they might have to pay him 12-13 million a year. If he has an OK to good season, he will be at 10-11 million. If he struggles or gets injured, he probably will make less than 10 million. Jazz are offering security for a few million per year less. Jazz will gladly pay him more if he has a great season, so they might as well wait to see it happen before committing to it. Hayward will likely end up getting around 4 years 44 million, but is 4 million worth the risk of injury or a bad season? I guess to him it is.

Interesting that Hayward has to prove himself to the fans but Favors doesn't. I fully support the jazz in the extension they gave Favors, but it's rediculus to think that Favors isn't any less a risk then Hayward is who by the way is less proven then Hayward. Yes Favors impacts a game with his defense, but Hayward also impacts the game with his playmaking, 3pt shooting, ability to get to the foul line, man, and help defense, and IQ. So if it's too big a risk to pay Hayward what we gave Favors, then we should reconsider what Favors got knowing that we also have Kanter waiting in the wings to get paid.

I love your attitude and Hayward is probably my favorite player but I disagree. Hayward is not an all star now and probably never will be. I hope I eat those words. I think max money needs to go to a guy who was born with the ability to take over a team and when nessessary a game. Hayward was not born with that ability. He can "learn" it but we've all had a boss a some point in our lives that was trying to learn to be a leader. If you're not born with it you not going to magically learn it.

How many opertunities has Hayward had to carry the team playing off the bench for most of his time here and having to defer to Sap and Al, and the few times he's had that chance he's come through. Also never said I thought he should get a max deal.

Look at the contending teams. Miami 1st james, 2nd wade; third jar jar binks; fourth option Ray Allen. I'd say Hayward is a little better than Ray.

San Antonio 1st Parker; 2nd Duncan; Third Manny. I'd say Hayward is about as good as Manny.

Chicago 1st Rose; 2nd Noah; 3rd Deng. I'd say Hayward and Deng about equal.

On a contending team, Hayward is no better than the third option.

you seriously need to cut back on the Viagra. Hayward is well ahead of Manu at this point. Hell Manu is what 36-37 years old? In his prime he was on equal ground with Parker. Parker is actually better now then he was 5 years ago. And they played with an all time great. Hayward is better at everything than Deng other then rebounding and defense, and I'd say they are a wash at defense. And there is no way Ray is even close to Hayward at this point in his career, and would rather have Hayward over Jar Jar.

How much more? Favors averaged 9.4 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.7 bpg in 23.2 minutes. Hayward ended with 14.1 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.0 ast in 29.2 minutes. And that's ignoring the fact that Favors affects the game with his defense in ways that don't show up in stats.

I love Hayward at 10 million. I'll take him for 11. But I'd rather see him released for nothing than pay him 15 m/y.

who is saying we should pay him 15 a year?

Celtics forum already has thread on how they want hayward since jazz won't extend him

can you provide a link, would like to take a look at that.

$11 - $12 mil. That's what he's asking for now, so make him prove it.

why does he need to prove it being more proven then Favors, and Favors doesn't?

 

[Dr. Jones]

I just think he's a $9MM guy. That's my number.

Anything north of 10 and I let him walk.

 

[sirkickyass]

I just think he's a $9MM guy. That's my number.

Anything north of 10 and I let him walk.

I suspect $10 is the right number under the theory that "good deals are ones where everyone's a little unhappy at the end." I wouldn't be thrilled to pay him $10m and obviously he wouldn't be thrilled to get it.

 

[zbone]

Surprisingly, I am with PKM.
I have a feeling Hayward gonna be injured this season.

 

[Guitaro]

you seriously need to cut back on the Viagra. Hayward is well ahead of Manu at this point. H*** Manu is what 36-37 years old? In his prime he was on equal ground with Parker. Parker is actually better now then he was 5 years ago. And they played with an all time great. Hayward is better at everything than Deng other then rebounding and defense, and I'd say they are a wash at defense. And there is no way Ray is even close to Hayward at this point in his career, and would rather have Hayward over Jar Jar.

Hayward is not going to be better than Manu, sorry. Manu is an elite shooter and scorer, first of all. He's also a much better passer and finisher in the half-court. Hayward has better size and thus rebounds better and also blocks shots better as well. Yet, I would say Manu is smarter and more clever with the ball and on defense. Hayward is a smart guy and a good player. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to think he's worth the same contract as Manu got. Also, Manu could've gotten more but took less for the betterment of the team. Right now, Hayward or his agent are presenting him in the opposite light.

The only way I would approve Hayward getting a bigger contract is if they seriously front-load the contract so later on, the team will still have plenty of cap space to sign the free agents we need. I'm thinking after this draft and maybe the next one, we'll know what kind of team we have and what we need in free agency. We can't rush that process with so many young guys or we're back to being mediocre again. The Jazz need to stay firm and not sign anymore veterans for awhile or spend big on players not quite deserving of it.

That means, give Hayward a solid contract but don't overpay. I thought Favors contract was a tad high, too.