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Are We Worse Than Last Season?

The journey is darkest half-way through the tunnel.

Rebuilding is rough, and it's about now in the rebuilding process when most teams panic and start making trades for vets. I see progress in how the team is playing. We got younger this year than we were last year. Hayward is playing better, Gorbert is turning into a monster, and at least the ball is moving this year. Our defense is just as bad as last year and will be as long as Kanter cant' cover my dead grandmother and Burke cant' stay in front of any pg.
 
Could be these guys just aren't as talented as we thought, but they also deserve more games than they've played together under a new coach to "get it" and keep their heads together. But our bench has been stinking up the court. :p

I think Snyder is a good coach and that we have some very talented players. But those BAD 2nd quarters are killing us. Without those, we would have one some of these last 9 because we came back so well in the 2nd half. IIRC, past Jazz teams (and presumably several other NBA teams) have had the same issue with certain quarters being awful. No idea why, but it happens. Last night was a little better.

I still think we end up better that last year, but maybe not by much. I do see positive things happening, and Hayward has definitely been better. They gotta find a swagger to really start playing together, but it's hard to find when you're 1. SO YOUNG and 2. Losing. They came into the season having won more in preseason than expected, and probably felt pretty good about themselves, so they played like it. But you lose a couple, get down on yourself, get into bad habits, and you're in the downward spiral. Pulling themselves out of that is probably mental in large part, but they gotta find their spark to get going again. IMO, it's gotta be defense that does it. They were playing much better defense early on than they are now.
 
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fishonjazz said:
Great post.
Can't argue against any of it
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He's framed it very strangely to reach a certain conclusion. Look at the players lost v. players gained in the rotation. It's difficult to see a huge change in quality, especially with the young players having an extra year under their belts:

Guards
Burke(+1 year)-Burks(+1 year)-Exum v. Burke-Burks-Garrett

Wings
Hayward(+1 year)-Hood-Ingles v. Hayward-RJ

Bigs
Favors(+1 year)-Kanter(+1 year)-Booker-Gobert v. Favors-Kanter-Marvin-Evans

Is Exum a bigger downgrade from Garrett than the upgrade in experience for Burke and Burks?
Is RJ a big enough upgrade over Hood+Ingles to make up for the strides Gordo has made?
Is Booker-Gobert really worse than Marvin-Evans? Even with the extra experience for Kanter and Favors?

The team is at least as talented/deep as last year's team (especially with Novak's ability to provide spot minutes as a shooter). Quin is doing what people on this board wanted, playing Burke-Burks-Gordo-Kanter-Favors together, trying to push the ball, and emphasizing ball movement and outside shooting. It isn't working. It's gotten to the point that many on this board are now clamoring for a return to Corbin's lineups and strategy (i.e. moving burks and Kanter to the bench to balance the lineup, and working the ball inside out). It's ****ing hilarious.
 
In my opinion, I think Burke is the major problem. Not only is he a sieve on defense, but he's a shoot-first point guard who is a terrible shooter. I can't believe all the open looks he gets. It seems the only ones he makes are clutch shots that no one expects him to make because he has already missed so many wide-open shots.
 
Cy said:
Hayward, Favors, and Gobert are the only players to make significant improvements from last year. And Gobert still can't see enough time on the court because of his hands and the poor floor spacing he provides.

Kanter has gotten slightly better.

Burke is pretty much the exact same player from last year.

Burks has regressed, though I think he was on the verge of figuring it out. Not sure how much the shoulder will hold him back.

Exum is a ****ty backup PG right now. Garret was much better last year.

Hood of this year is worse than Jefferson of last year.

Marvin Williams > Joe Ingles.

Kanter as a backup PF > Booker as a backup PF


So yeah, I would say we are worse this year until Burks/Kanter/Burke make some improvements, Favors decides to bring it every night, Exum learns how to score, or Gobert starts being able to play more minutes while not hurting us too bad offensively.
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I would say Burke has regressed this year.
 
GVC said:
He's framed it very strangely to reach a certain conclusion. Look at the players lost v. players gained in the rotation. It's difficult to see a huge change in quality, especially with the young players having an extra year under their belts:

Guards
Burke(+1 year)-Burks(+1 year)-Exum v. Burke-Burks-Garrett

Wings
Hayward(+1 year)-Hood-Ingles v. Hayward-RJ

Bigs
Favors(+1 year)-Kanter(+1 year)-Booker-Gobert v. Favors-Kanter-Marvin-Evans

Is Exum a bigger downgrade from Garrett than the upgrade in experience for Burke and Burks?
Is RJ a big enough upgrade over Hood+Ingles to make up for the strides Gordo has made?
Is Booker-Gobert really worse than Marvin-Evans? Even with the extra experience for Kanter and Favors?

The team is at least as talented/deep as last year's team (especially with Novak's ability to provide spot minutes as a shooter). Quin is doing what people on this board wanted, playing Burke-Burks-Gordo-Kanter-Favors together, trying to push the ball, and emphasizing ball movement and outside shooting. It isn't working. It's gotten to the point that many on this board are now clamoring for a return to Corbin's lineups and strategy (i.e. moving burks and Kanter to the bench to balance the lineup, and working the ball inside out). It's ****ing hilarious.
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But a lot less experienced. Jefferson & Marvin love them or hate them came through for us numerous times when we needed someone to score last year. This year we've really struggled to score in patches.


Some commentators said the Jazz could be like the Pheonix Suns of last year, but if you go back and look they have a much more experienced team compared to us.
 
fishonjazz said:
I thought I heard that jazz starting lineup is the youngest in the league or something
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Average age of the startig 5 is 22.8

Average age of the main rotation (adding exum, hood, ingles, booker and gobert) is 23.1

Oldest two rotation players are Booker and Ingles at 27 each. And Ingles is a "rookie".

In fact the only one over 30 is Novak and he has only played very few minutes in a game here or there.

This team is extremely young and makes lots of mistakes.
 
New system + new coach + youngest team in league = worst than last year but better future


Sent from the JazzFanz app
 
Jeffrey32 said:
New system + new coach + youngest team in league = worst than last year but better future


Sent from the JazzFanz app
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That...... Then again, I think we will be better than last year by the end of this season
 
fishonjazz said:
That...... Then again, I think we will be better than last year by the end of this season
Click to expand...

I wish I had your optimism. I'm really concerned that we have put money and time into players that are at best bench players (Kanter, Burks, Burke). Exum is still a huge question, but needs to grow a pair when going to the hoop. Favors has improved IMO.
 
MoTappin said:
Could be these guys just aren't as talented as we thought, but they also deserve more games than they've played together under a new coach to "get it" and keep their heads together. But our bench has been stinking up the court. :p

I think Snyder is a good coach and that we have some very talented players. But those BAD 2nd quarters are killing us. Without those, we would have one some of these last 9 because we came back so well in the 2nd half. IIRC, past Jazz teams (and presumably several other NBA teams) have had the same issue with certain quarters being awful. No idea why, but it happens. Last night was a little better.

I still think we end up better that last year, but maybe not by much. I do see positive things happening, and Hayward has definitely been better. They gotta find a swagger to really start playing together, but it's hard to find when you're 1. SO YOUNG and 2. Losing. They came into the season having won more in preseason than expected, and probably felt pretty good about themselves, so they played like it. But you lose a couple, get down on yourself, get into bad habits, and you're in the downward spiral. Pulling themselves out of that is probably mental in large part, but they gotta find their spark to get going again. IMO, it's gotta be defense that does it. They were playing much better defense early on than they are now.
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umm what about the bad 1st quarters ?????
 
tedbundy said:
I wish I had your optimism. I'm really concerned that we have put money and time into players that are at best bench players (Kanter, Burks, Burke). Exum is still a huge question, but needs to grow a pair when going to the hoop. Favors has improved IMO.
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It shouldn't be that hard. Simply look at the areas each of them have improved. No one is saying they are a finished product but they have all clearly been improving every year.

I mean look at that tip in Kanter had last night. Sandwiched between two players and he fights in between them and tips it in with one hand. In the past he would have grabbed that rebound brought the ball to his waist and gone back up...

Of Favors improved J

Haywards muscle and finishing at the rim

Gobert staring to be able to do more than just catch lobs for dunks. He is starting to pass and put the ball on the court in 1 on 1s.
 
^
Agree. And even IF Kanter, Burke and Burks become bench players, just think what a helluva bench that would be!
Gobert and Exum need to FORCE Quin to play them. Gobert has done that the past 2 games. Exum continues to be timid. But he's also a rookie and maybe outside of Vonleh, the rawest in the draft.
 
Stifle Tower said:
^
Agree. And even IF Kanter, Burke and Burks become bench players, just think what a helluva bench that would be!
Gobert and Exum need to FORCE Quin to play them. Gobert has done that the past 2 games. Exum continues to be timid. But he's also a rookie and maybe outside of Vonleh, the rawest in the draft.
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People act like having a couple of our players pan out to bench players is a bad thing. It's not bad at all. A good team needs a good bench. It may not be what we wanted but that does not make it bad. We also have that potantial allstar/superstar in Exum (too early to know one way or the other) and some damn fine pieces to put around him.
 
Stoked said:
People act like having a couple of our players pan out to bench players is a bad thing. It's not bad at all. A good team needs a good bench. It may not be what we wanted but that does not make it bad. We also have that potential allstar/superstar in Exum (too early to know one way or the other) and some damn fine pieces to put around him.
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...and a top-whatever (5?, 8?) draft pick AND a max salary slot. I'm not counting on Exum becoming a superstar. Odds are he doesn't. But we could have all-star/fringe all-star potential through almost our entire rotation at some point. Just need to add a couple of players and get more experience. I'm really looking forward to the draft and free agency.
 
Stifle Tower said:
...and a top-whatever (5?, 8?) draft pick AND a max salary slot. I'm not counting on Exum becoming a superstar. Odds are he doesn't. But we could have all-star/fringe all-star potential through almost our entire rotation at some point. Just need to add a couple of players and get more experience. I'm really looking forward to the draft and free agency.
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I am not counting on it either. But it is possible with him imo. I agree that we have allstar level or close to allstar level players on the roster (Favors, Hayward) already. As for experience it looks like the FO wants these guys to get their own experince and then bring in another big draft pick and try and land a big name player.

That's how I am seeing it anyways.
 
Stoked said:
I am not counting on it either. But it is possible with him imo. I agree that we have allstar level or close to allstar level players on the roster (Favors, Hayward) already. As for experience it looks like the FO wants these guys to get their own experince and then bring in another big draft pick and try and land a big name player.

That's how I am seeing it anyways.
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I agree. Since we didn't have a 2012 first-rounder, I guess Utah has two years they may have decent cap space to bring in a top free agent (i.e. close to the max). But I think the time to do so is definitely this summer if possible. Hayward can (and likely will) opt out after year #3. If Jazz want to keep him, they have to show significant upward progression. Or they need to have a player to replace him. As for players with all-star or fringe all-star potential, I see Hayward and Favors as there right now. Gobert and Burks could develop. Exum is an unknown, but has shown flashes. Counting on another all-star caliber prospect in the draft and the same in free agency.
 
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