2021 NBA Draft Preview (new thread)

[idiot]

Lopez, Middleton, Tucker and Holiday are all good athlete for their position. Allow them to play good defense, rebound and contribute in different ways.

No Bojan/JC/Niang type who's basically useless on the floor when they aren't making shots.

I don't want to belabor things too much but in terms of Milwaukee searching for long, young, athletes:

• while Lopez has great length, his career seemed to be in jeopardy a few years ago because of his lack of athleticism (which was also clear in the World Cup competition Donovan participated in)
• Middleton was never really considered a plus athlete coming into the NBA. He's succeeded as average one, I'd say. His wingspan is only average for his size. He's a good defender in spite of his physical tools, not really because of them.
• If Holiday was coming out of the draft now, we'd be raising questions about his wingspan. He has good (but not great) height for a combo guard, but his wingspan is just 6'7"
• Connaughton jumps well, but he was never considered to be especially quick laterally. He wasn't considered a "great athlete" coming into the NBA. His wingspan is decent (6'9"), but nothing outstanding compared to others who play the position.
• Divencenzo is a good (not great) athlete that is both kind of short (average at best) for his position and has below-average wingspan.
• Bryn Forbes -- don't even get me started
• PJ Tucker's wingspan is pretty good, but nobody would mistake him for a superior run/jump athlete.
• Jeff Teague is another guy with decent (not great) wingspan for his height. His days of being known as a superior athlete are certainly in the past.
• Portis is tall and has a good wingspan, but questions about him have always revolved around the combination of functional athleticism and BBIQ.
• unlike the Jazz, their two picks last year (Nwora and Merrill) seem much more like fliers on guys with skill than superior athletes
• Many of the guys they drafted in recent years that fit the long athlete mold (Kevin Porter, DJ Wilson, Thon Maker, Sindarius Thornwell, Patrick McCaw, Norman Powell ([traded for Greivis Vasqez, the antithesis of a superior NBA athlete]) were all jettisoned on draft-day trades or once they proved not to be valuable NBA players

 

[NUMBERICA]

I don't want to belabor things too much but in terms of Milwaukee searching for long, young, athletes:

• while Lopez has great length, his career seemed to be in jeopardy a few years ago because of his lack of athleticism (which was also clear in the World Cup competition Donovan participated in)
• Middleton was never really considered a plus athlete coming into the NBA. He's succeeded as average one, I'd say. His wingspan is only average for his size. He's a good defender in spite of his physical tools, not really because of them.
• If Holiday was coming out of the draft now, we'd be raising questions about his wingspan. He has good (but not great) height for a combo guard, but his wingspan is just 6'7"
• Connaughton jumps well, but he was never considered to be especially quick laterally. He wasn't considered a "great athlete" coming into the NBA. His wingspan is decent (6'9"), but nothing outstanding compared to others who play the position.
• Divencenzo is a good (not great) athlete that is both kind of short (average at best) for his position and has below-average wingspan.
• PJ Tucker's wingspan is pretty good, but nobody would mistake him for a superior run/jump athlete.
• Jeff Teague is another guy with decent (not great) wingspan for his height. His days of being known as a superior athlete are certainly in the past.
• Portis is tall and has a good wingspan, but questions about him have always revolved around the combination of functional athleticism and BBIQ.
• unlike the Jazz, their two picks last year (Nwora and Merrill) seem much more like fliers on guys with skill than superior athletes
• Many of the guys they drafted in recent years that fit the long athlete mold (Kevin Porter, DJ Wilson, Thon Maker, Sindarius Thornwell, Patrick McCaw, Norman Powell ([traded for Greivis Vasqez, the antithesis of a superior NBA athlete]) were all jettisoned on draft-day trades or once they proved not to be valuable NBA players

Thanks for putting in the work on this. I was shooting from the hip and was ready to move on from this debate. I would like to just tuck in the fact that the Warriors weren't great because they were this team of amazing athletes. In fact, who on those teams was obviously a plus athlete (besides Durant given his height, but without whom the Warriors were still an all-time team)?

 

[idiot]

Thanks for putting in the work on this. I was shooting from the hip and was ready to move on from this debate. I would like to just tuck in the fact that the Warriors weren't great because they were this team of amazing athletes. In fact, who on those teams was obviously a plus athlete (besides Durant given his height, but without whom the Warriors were still an all-time team)?

Yes on the Warriors (I guess Iggy still counted as a long, plus athlete, maybe Livingston given that he was a PG?)! I'd say the Bucks can hold their own athletically (having Giannis goes a long, long way), but their success (beyond having perhaps the best player in every series -- maybe Durant better than Giannis?) I think is attributed to having a bunch of well-fitting guys with toughness that just know how to play.

 

[Keefe]

I'm not convinced Roko is any bigger now than Bojan is. Bojan is listed as 6'8", somehow, in the new barefoot height era of the NBA; Roko is 6'7.5". Roko's wingspan is 6'11", nothing special for his position. Bojan's is unknown, though just guessing maybe an inch or two less than Roko? Their weight these days is similar, though Roko could fill out; so is their athleticism, I'd say. Although I'd expect a little more strength/toughness out of Roko by the time he fills out, I have real questions whether he'll turn out to have any more defensive lateral mobility than Bojan does.

And, of course, his shot is nowhere near what Bojan's ever has been (who himself was a second-rounder).

For those on the length/athleticism train, you should be all over Greg Brown rather than Roko.

I hear you on the size but let’s be honest, Roko plays far bigger than Bojan. At least overseas. He’s above the rim A LOT. He also rebounds far better.

The shooting (his form more than anything) is my biggest concern. But if he’s a 4 and can hit 35% from the 3, is it really the end of the world?

 

[idiot]

I hear you on the size but let’s be honest, Roko plays far bigger than Bojan. At least overseas. He’s above the rim A LOT. He also rebounds far better.

The shooting (his form more than anything) is my biggest concern. But if he’s a 4 and can hit 35% from the 3, is it really the end of the world?

I agree he plays like a PF more than Bojan. And yes, I'd expect better rebounding. But if we're worrying at times that Bojan can't stay in front of mobile PFs, then I'm not totally sold that we'd get that out of Roko (I want to hedge my bets a little, because I think some of this ability can be taught/grown into, though it isn't always).

I keep coming back to the move that so enamored us (at least me) about Roko's highlights and points to his athleticism: the one where he crosses over his defender at the 3-point line and makes a quick, decisive move for a powerful dunk. Then I saw in Croatia's recent highlights (against Germany, I think) in the Olympic qualifying game that Bojan pulled out nearly an identical move. So perhaps its just because they're two similarly-sized guys from Croatia, but I still need more persuasion that we'd be getting something different out of Roko than Bojan (of course drafting a true Bojan 2.0 would be a wildly successful pick at 30).

 

[jom2003]

I don't want to belabor things too much but in terms of Milwaukee searching for long, young, athletes:

• while Lopez has great length, his career seemed to be in jeopardy a few years ago because of his lack of athleticism (which was also clear in the World Cup competition Donovan participated in)
• Middleton was never really considered a plus athlete coming into the NBA. He's succeeded as average one, I'd say. His wingspan is only average for his size. He's a good defender in spite of his physical tools, not really because of them.
• If Holiday was coming out of the draft now, we'd be raising questions about his wingspan. He has good (but not great) height for a combo guard, but his wingspan is just 6'7"
• Connaughton jumps well, but he was never considered to be especially quick laterally. He wasn't considered a "great athlete" coming into the NBA. His wingspan is decent (6'9"), but nothing outstanding compared to others who play the position.
• Divencenzo is a good (not great) athlete that is both kind of short (average at best) for his position and has below-average wingspan.
• PJ Tucker's wingspan is pretty good, but nobody would mistake him for a superior run/jump athlete.
• Jeff Teague is another guy with decent (not great) wingspan for his height. His days of being known as a superior athlete are certainly in the past.
• Portis is tall and has a good wingspan, but questions about him have always revolved around the combination of functional athleticism and BBIQ.
• unlike the Jazz, their two picks last year (Nwora and Merrill) seem much more like fliers on guys with skill than superior athletes
• Many of the guys they drafted in recent years that fit the long athlete mold (Kevin Porter, DJ Wilson, Thon Maker, Sindarius Thornwell, Patrick McCaw, Norman Powell ([traded for Greivis Vasqez, the antithesis of a superior NBA athlete]) were all jettisoned on draft-day trades or once they proved not to be valuable NBA players

Well, first Lopez wasn't drafted by the Bucks, was he? This is a draft thread after all. If we want to sign skilled guys that are proven in the NBA, look at FA and trade market. There should be a 2021 FA thread coming soon. Most prospects in the draft aren't skilled enough anyways. So in the draft we should prioritize raw athlete because it's easier to teach basketball skills than to teach non-athlete athleticism.

That's why i used Niang as an example. Like we could've easily signed a player from FA but instead, we wasted three years trying to "develop" him just so he can totally disappear in playoffs when games are played at a much higher intensity.

Middleton isn't a plus athlete. Sure. But he isn't a complete non-athlete like Bogey or Niang either. He's at least neutral in that regards. Like the fact Jae Crowder doesn't shoot the 3's well, so you replace him with Favors, who isn't a 3pt shooter at all.

See where I'm getting here? You don't have to tackle one specific area and just completely tank in others. We wanted more shootings so we went with shooters like Bogey/Niang/Thomas and completely tanked defense/rebounding, which got us killed in the playoffs. Going from one extreme to the other. You can add more shooting while at least being neutral on other areas, instead of hurting them.

Same for Pat Connaughton. He was a proven rotation player who wasn't a total non-athlete. We could've signed him in 2018 to contribute for us right away, instead of wasting three years on Niang to make him the ninth man in our rotation/complete non-factor for us in the playoffs.

And all the guys you talked about here are from FA, not from the draft. Like I've already stated, we can look at guys with polished skills from FA/trade market, but it's near impossible to find prospects that are polished enough to play in the NBA right away. Especially at the 30th spot. Which is why, again, we need to prioritize on raw athletes when we are drafting.

 

[Keefe]

I agree he plays like a PF more than Bojan. And yes, I'd expect better rebounding. But if we're worrying at times that Bojan can't stay in front of mobile PFs, then I'm not totally sold that we'd get that out of Roko (I want to hedge my bets a little, because I think some of this ability can be taught/grown into, though it isn't always).

I keep coming back to the move that so enamored us (at least me) about Roko's highlights and points to his athleticism: the one where he crosses over his defender at the 3-point line and makes a quick, decisive move for a powerful dunk. Then I saw in Croatia's recent highlights (against Germany, I think) in the Olympic qualifying game that Bojan pulled out nearly an identical move. So perhaps its just because they're two similarly-sized guys from Croatia, but I still need more persuasion that we'd be getting something different out of Roko than Bojan (of course drafting a true Bojan 2.0 would be a wildly successful pick at 30).

Well, Roko has an infinitely better ability to handle the ball and penetrate and attack the rim for one. He’s also just 18. 18!!! Defense can be taught. Improved upon. For me, he reminds me a bit of Blake Griffin (awkward from 3, explosive as fugg when Blake was younger), might not be great defensively.

 

[idiot]

Well, Roko has an infinitely better ability to handle the ball and penetrate and attack the rim for one. He’s also just 18. 18!!! Defense can be taught. Improved upon.

It's above my pay-grade to evaluate/compare, but Bojan has always been a great scorer on rim attacks at the international level. He's carried the Croatian team scoring-wise for years and not just as a jump shooter.

But yes, the 18 thing gives me all kind of hope for Roko. Roko's on my list of guys I can be perfectly happy picking.

 

[Udidthizz]

I’m suitably impressed byRoko’s physique too. He’s built very powerfully for a guy his age, looks for contact on his drives and finishes right through it and can back his defender down into the paint. Bogie used to be good at that too, but his finishing on such moves was pretty inconsistent this season.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Okay, where is Roko projected? Cause the kid looks insane offensively. Extremely skilled. Great handle. Explosive as ****. His shot is awkward as **** but he did connect on 39% of threes…and that’s the intl 3, not the college 3. Really good length. Like wtf. Is the guy a chair on defense or something? At 18 years old, how is this kid not a surefire lottery pick?

This is a strong draft. During any other year, I'd call him a late-lottery guy like Marcus Morris or Rui Hachimura. I definitely like him more than Luka Samanic, who ended up going #19 a couple years ago. It wouldn't surprise me if some team took him in the late teens or early 20s this year.

There's a strange silence around Roko right now. He left the Combine early and has only had one pre-draft workout I can find news of. That was in Charlotte where he worked out against JT Thor. I'm wondering if he's shutting down his pre-draft process. There's no way the Jazz wouldn't at least work him out.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I’m suitably impressed byRoko’s physique too. He’s built very powerfully for a guy his age, looks for contact on his drives and finishes right through it and can back his defender down into the paint. Bogie used to be good at that too, but his finishing on such moves was pretty inconsistent this season.

Roko has a much tighter handle than Bogey and better ball skills overall. He's that 6'8" / 225-lb big wing who can get in the lane and make a variety of plays.

 

[Keefe]

This is a strong draft. During any other year, I'd call him a late-lottery guy like Marcus Morris or Rui Hachimura. I definitely like him more than Luka Samanic, who ended up going #19 a couple years ago. It wouldn't surprise me if some team took him in the late teens or early 20s this year.

There's a strange silence around Roko right now. He left the Combine early and has only had one pre-draft workout I can find news of. That was in Charlotte where he worked out against JT Thor. I'm wondering if he's shutting down his pre-draft process. There's no way the Jazz wouldn't at least work him out.

How did that workout go? Did one player dominate the other?

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

I'm not convinced Roko is any bigger now than Bojan is. Bojan is listed as 6'8", somehow, in the new barefoot height era of the NBA; Roko is 6'7.5". Roko's wingspan is 6'11", nothing special for his position. Bojan's is unknown, though just guessing maybe an inch or two less than Roko? Their weight these days is similar, though Roko could fill out; so is their athleticism, I'd say. Although I'd expect a little more strength/toughness out of Roko by the time he fills out, I have real questions whether he'll turn out to have any more defensive lateral mobility than Bojan does.

And, of course, his shot is nowhere near what Bojan's ever has been (who himself was a second-rounder).

For those on the length/athleticism train, you should be all over Greg Brown rather than Roko.

I never understood the barefoot thing. You don't play barefooted. I understand that some players would put lifts in their shoes but a 6-4 barefooted is still 6-5 when in shoes.

Just like you don't play with the top of your head.

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I agree he plays like a PF more than Bojan. And yes, I'd expect better rebounding. But if we're worrying at times that Bojan can't stay in front of mobile PFs, then I'm not totally sold that we'd get that out of Roko (I want to hedge my bets a little, because I think some of this ability can be taught/grown into, though it isn't always).

I keep coming back to the move that so enamored us (at least me) about Roko's highlights and points to his athleticism: the one where he crosses over his defender at the 3-point line and makes a quick, decisive move for a powerful dunk. Then I saw in Croatia's recent highlights (against Germany, I think) in the Olympic qualifying game that Bojan pulled out nearly an identical move. So perhaps its just because they're two similarly-sized guys from Croatia, but I still need more persuasion that we'd be getting something different out of Roko than Bojan (of course drafting a true Bojan 2.0 would be a wildly successful pick at 30).

Roko is a better passer who can likely play in pick-and-roll. He can really play with the ball in his hands. I'd say his handle and passing are both better than Bojan and are probably more Hayward-level. I think he's likely a better finisher at the rim and a more diverse post scorer, but I'm projecting there.

Again, I think the comp for Roko at this stage is Rui Hachimura. Same size. Similar handle and body control. Similar ability to get downhill and get on the rim. Jumpshot TBD.

Roko also measured out half an inch taller and an inch longer than Marcus Morris. He's got good size for a modern 4.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

How did that workout go? Did one player dominate the other?

I have no idea.

 

[idiot]

I never understood the barefoot thing. You don't play barefooted. I understand that some players would put lifts in their shoes but a 6-4 barefooted is still 6-5 when in shoes.

Just like you don't play with the top of your head.

Sent from my SM-N960U using JazzFanz mobile app

The way I'd answer this is that it's less important for what matters (comparing players to one another) whether the height is accurate absolutely as translated to the basketball court; instead it's more important to understand how players height relates to one another.

If you could guarantee that someone's height measured in shoes never changes throughout their career (that they never use different types of shoes than the ones they measure with at the combine, for example), then you could just as well use the height in shoes as a good way to properly compare one player's height to another. Otherwise, we're stuck with shoes-off height as the best way to make the player-to-player comparison.

EDIT: As long as some players seemingly add 2.25" to their barefoot height with shoes, while others add as little as .75", the height in shoes measurement is just too misleading to help us usefully compare one player to another (again assuming that players will sometimes change shoes, which I don't know why I shouldn't assume).

 

[idiot]

Roko is a better passer who can likely play in pick-and-roll. He can really play with the ball in his hands. I'd say his handle and passing are both better than Bojan and are probably more Hayward-level. I think he's likely a better finisher at the rim and a more diverse post scorer, but I'm projecting there.

Again, I think the comp for Roko at this stage is Rui Hachimura. Same size. Similar handle and body control. Similar ability to get downhill and get on the rim. Jumpshot TBD.

Roko also measured out half an inch taller and an inch longer than Marcus Morris. He's got good size for a modern 4.

I'm certainly not saying that some of this isn't possible, but I do agree that there's a significant amount of projection in these statements.

Bojan came up as a shooting guard, and the NBA draft projections thought he could handle that on offense (go back and look at Draft Express). They just questioned whether he could excel at the position defensively. By now he's turned himself into someone big enough to guard PFs theoretically, but questions about his inside toughness and defensive mobility continue to dog him.

I agree that in time Roko should easily be able to handle the physicality of the PF position. And I agree that (unlike Rui, although I like the comparison in some other ways), he's likely to be a positive playmaker for others as well as himself at this position. But we're judging him in ball handling and playmaking skills to other PFs. Bojan proved he could survive in the NBA in these regards first as a SG/SF. Compared to most PFs in the NBA, Bojan ranks pretty good here. That's part of what makes the Jazz offense so dangerous (maybe more so than if we would have picked up Mirotic, for example). So I'm still skeptical that Roko is definitely better in an absolute sense at ball handling.

My biggest concerns for Roko are simply the shot and the defensive mobility. It's entirely possible that both come around.

 

[idiot]

Roko is a better passer who can likely play in pick-and-roll. He can really play with the ball in his hands. I'd say his handle and passing are both better than Bojan and are probably more Hayward-level. I think he's likely a better finisher at the rim and a more diverse post scorer, but I'm projecting there.

Again, I think the comp for Roko at this stage is Rui Hachimura. Same size. Similar handle and body control. Similar ability to get downhill and get on the rim. Jumpshot TBD.

Roko also measured out half an inch taller and an inch longer than Marcus Morris. He's got good size for a modern 4.

PS -- you've persuaded me that I need to go back and watch some more Roko

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Garuba is playing for the Spanish national team against Team USA. Would be interesting to see him matchup with Draymond.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This Roko has a good handle propaganda is getting out of hand lmao