Agbaji is balling

[jazznik]

In 31 minutes he averages 14 points on 59% FG, shoots 4 3-pointers at 48%, and adds to that 5 rebounds, 2 assists and 1.3 steals. And he also plays good defense against guards, which the Jazz are seemingly incapable of. It is clear that the Jazz gave up on him too early.

Another strike against Ainge.

 

[fishonjazz]

In 31 minutes he averages 14 points on 59% FG, shoots 4 3-pointers at 48%, and adds to that 5 rebounds, 2 assists and 1.3 steals. And he also plays good defense against guards, which the Jazz are seemingly incapable of. It is clear that the Jazz gave up on him too early.

Another strike against Ainge.

Jazz should have played him more and should have kept him

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[HermanG]

In 31 minutes he averages 14 points on 59% FG, shoots 4 3-pointers at 48%, and adds to that 5 rebounds, 2 assists and 1.3 steals. And he also plays good defense against guards, which the Jazz are seemingly incapable of. It is clear that the Jazz gave up on him too early.

Another strike against Ainge.

This is just increibly premature to declare based on 11 games of good counting stats production. For instance last season after the trade he shot 21.1% from deep for Toronto. Maybe he figured it all out during the summer, but I will wait and see until he actually looks like an impactful player.

Right now he doesnt. He has the worst plus minus (total AND per36) of anyone in his team who has played over 200 minutes and is in 14th percentile in on/off differential with -11.9. That mostly comes from negative defensive rating, which is not a great look for a supposed 3&D guy who creates nothing on offense.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Good for him

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Probably didn't need it's own thread, 10 games in to the season, but I thought giving up on Agbaji so early might have been a mistake.

We likely have additional casualties during this rebuild. We have too many prospects to properly develop and evaluate.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Probably didn't need it's own thread, 10 games in to the season, but I thought giving up on Agbaji so early might have been a mistake.

We likely have additional casualties during this rebuild. We have too many prospects to properly develop and evaluate.

This is the #1 reason Patty Mills and Eubanks should not be in the rotation unless there are injuries. Need to see what we have and make decisions quickly or consolidate picks during the draft when possible.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

This is the #1 reason Patty Mills and Eubanks should not be in the rotation unless there are injuries. Need to see what we have and make decisions quickly or consolidate picks during the draft when possible.

The other side of that argument is that it's difficult to evaluate guys when they are surrounded by other unknowns. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but there's probably a balance.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The other side of that argument is that it's difficult to evaluate guys when they are surrounded by other unknowns. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but there's probably a balance.

I see that as well. I think you are just looking to see if the experiment is worth continuing or if its going well... are you planning around this young player going forward?

With Ochai I think we lost the narrative a bit when they tried to force feed him possessions. Like run some stuff his way but the on ball stuff was kinda weird.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I see that as well. I think you are just looking to see if the experiment is worth continuing or if its going well... are you planning around this young player going forward?

With Ochai I think we lost the narrative a bit when they tried to force feed him possessions. Like run some stuff his way but the on ball stuff was kinda weird.

Part of the equation for DA and the FO is probably not just, "is he an NBA player", but also "is he a special NBA talent." Or in other words with Agbaji they might have thought he could be an NBA player, but needed to see some on ball stuff to see if he might become something that couldn't be easily replaced.

 

[KqWIN]

Good for him, the shooting may come and go, but I've watched a few TOR games this year and he's definitely upped his motor and intensity. What bothered me most about his time here is that he did not make plays with his athleticism....very little activity. I do wonder if that's just not something that is rewarded/taught well in the Jazz program.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Good for him, the shooting may come and go, but I've watched a few TOR games this year and he's definitely upped his motor and intensity. What bothered me most about his time here is that he did not make plays with his athleticism....very little activity. I do wonder if that's just not something that is rewarded/taught well in the Jazz program.

I think it's hard to have high activity when you are thinking. That doesn't quite explain his second year, but definitely was part of why he often looked slow his first year.

 

[KqWIN]

I think it's hard to have high activity when you are thinking. That doesn't quite explain his second year, but definitely was part of why he often looked slow his first year.

I'm more talking about his complete lack of rebounding, steals, blocks ect. He did improve on that his second year with us, so maybe I'm speaking out of line, but when Ochai was at his max hype I didn't think much of him because he was pretty much league worst in all the activity categories. Back when he was "untouchable" I just saw a guy who got free minutes and put up some points during tank time.

 

[idiot]

I think the point is that you shouldn't give up on players until they're at least 24 years old.


... Only half kidding.

 

[kabenac]

He didn't fit the Jazz D.N.A. apparently... he was a guard who wasn't ****ing awful on defense.

 

[jazznik]

This is just increibly premature to declare based on 11 games of good counting stats production. For instance last season after the trade he shot 21.1% from deep for Toronto. Maybe he figured it all out during the summer, but I will wait and see until he actually looks like an impactful player.

Right now he doesnt. He has the worst plus minus (total AND per36) of anyone in his team who has played over 200 minutes and is in 14th percentile in on/off differential with -11.9. That mostly comes from negative defensive rating, which is not a great look for a supposed 3&D guy who creates nothing on offense.

Agbaji is routinely thrown at the best opposing wing or guard, which mostly explains his plus-minus. Kinda like Kessler on the Jazz currently having the worst (by far!) plus-minus among all Jazz bigs.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

I like Agbaji. Wish him luck. I also don't think he looked to be a starting caliber 3&D player. More like a 3 and F player. Tee hee.

Having said that, I thought he had a place in Utah.

To add color to this conversation, we essentially traded Olynyk rental (werent going to keep him) and Agbaji for Collier.
If it is Agbaji in his 4th season or Collier, who do you keep straight up?

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Agbaji looked terrible at summer league with the ball in his hands. Like TERRIBLE...

 

[HermanG]

Agbaji is routinely thrown at the best opposing wing or guard, which mostly explains his plus-minus. Kinda like Kessler on the Jazz currently having the worst (by far!) plus-minus among all Jazz bigs.

Kessler's numbers are bad, but there are guys with clearly worse numbers dragging him down (Key and Clarkson in particular).

Cant say the same for Ochai, who has nearly twice the negative to Dick, Poeltl and Davion Mitchell who are the other three guys to appear in all 11 games and start at least 8 of them (Ochai has appeared in all 11, and started 9).

 

[jazznik]

Kessler's numbers are bad, but there are guys with clearly worse numbers dragging him down (Key and Clarkson in particular).

Cant say the same for Ochai, who has nearly twice the negative to Dick, Poeltl and Davion Mitchell who are the other three guys to appear in all 11 games and start at least 8 of them (Ochai has appeared in all 11, and started 9).

It's a little bit offtopic, but the plus-minus does funny things for the solid defensive starters on very bad or very good teams. Usually what makes the team very bad or very good is their starters: the difference between benches is usually much smaller. And the solid defensive players do not make the starting five either very good or very bad - that's the production of stars. But as a result the plus-minus of those solid starters is unfairly elevated or dragged down.

For example, the best plus-minus on the last season's Celtics belongs to Derrick White, the second best plus-minus on the 23-24 Nuggets (just a hair below Jokic!) - to KCP, and the second highest on the 23-24 Cavs - to Max Strus. And on the teams struggling this year Agbaji and Kessler are unfairly bad on the struggling Raptors and Jazz and Ingram is the worst for the Pelicans.

The best plus-minus players on the Jazz are all off the bench, led by mighty Patty Mills and Eubanks, and they are likely to remain among the leaders going forward because the Jazz' bench is not nearly as horrible as their starters.

 

[HermanG]

It's a little bit offtopic, but the plus-minus does funny things for the solid defensive starters on very bad or very good teams. Usually what makes the team very bad or very good is their starters: the difference between benches is usually much smaller. And the solid defensive players do not make the starting five either very good or very bad - that's the production of stars. But as a result the plus-minus of those solid starters is unfairly elevated or dragged down.

For example, the best plus-minus on the last season's Celtics belongs to Derrick White, the second best plus-minus on the 23-24 Nuggets (just a hair below Jokic!) - to KCP, and the second highest on the 23-24 Cavs - to Max Strus. And on the teams struggling this year Agbaji and Kessler are unfairly bad on the struggling Raptors and Jazz and Ingram is the worst for the Pelicans.

The best plus-minus players on the Jazz are all off the bench, led by mighty Patty Mills and Eubanks, and they are likely to remain among the leaders going forward because the Jazz' bench is not nearly as horrible as their starters.

The best defenders are (as you also said) often high up in the plus minus for their teams. That logic does not reverse for bad teams, even if the starter vs starter stats turn into negative ones. See Dunn and Kessler last year, both of whom started plenty of games. Tech also was one of the top plus minus guys, but his full season numbers arent comparable.

I'm not comparing Ochai to their bench, but to Dick, Mitchell and Poeltl. Those guys have gotten the bulk of the starter vs starter minutes alongside Ochai, yet arent nearly as negative on the box. And Ochai's efficient stats on offense actually boost his +-, as inefficiency on offense is something that really hurts those numbers (see Keyonte).