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Agbaji is balling

HermanG said:
The best defenders are (as you also said) often high up in the plus minus for their teams. That logic does not reverse for bad teams, even if the starter vs starter stats turn into negative ones. See Dunn and Kessler last year, both of whom started plenty of games. Tech also was one of the top plus minus guys, but his full season numbers arent comparable.

I'm not comparing Ochai to their bench, but to Dick, Mitchell and Poeltl. Those guys have gotten the bulk of the starter vs starter minutes alongside Ochai, yet arent nearly as negative on the box. And Ochai's efficient stats on offense actually boost his +-, as inefficiency on offense is something that really hurts those numbers (see Keyonte).
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I see your point but I still think that the plus-minus for starters on very good or very bad teams is not the best metric to measure their impact. Kessler as a starter had the 3rd highest plus-minus on the Jazz in his rookie season, just a hair below Lauri. Now he starts again ... and has the third worst plus-minus: even Cody is better while Walter's plus-minus is one of the very worst in the NBA.

But Kessler's game and impact in reality changed very little and it could be argued that he is actually a better player now than in his rookie year.
 
Update: Agbaji keeps playing very, very well. He is now the guy with the 6th best 3PT% in the NBA, producing 12 PPG (54% - 49%) and 4.5 RPG. He also markedly improved his assist and steal count while still being very low on on turnovers. And Ochai still plays a very good defense.

This season Agbaji became one of the best 3-and-D guys in the NBA. Which is especially funny since now our expectations (hopes?) are that if everything goes right Cody Williams can - in a couple of years - become someone like Ochai.
 
jazznik said:
This season Agbaji became one of the best 3-and-D guys in the NBA. Which is especially funny since now our expectations (hopes?) are that if everything goes right Cody Williams can - in a couple of years - become someone like Ochai.
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Exactly.

It's maddening.
 
jazznik said:
Update: Agbaji keeps playing very, very well. He is now the guy with the 6th best 3PT% in the NBA, producing 12 PPG (54% - 49%) and 4.5 RPG. He also markedly improved his assist and steal count while still being very low on on turnovers. And Ochai still plays a very good defense.

This season Agbaji became one of the best 3-and-D guys in the NBA. Which is especially funny since now our expectations (hopes?) are that if everything goes right Cody Williams can - in a couple of years - become someone like Ochai.
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Ochai can't dribble or pass at a high level. He wasn't an effective driver with the ball, and he wasn't making his shots. I was surprised how fast the Jazz cut the cord with him, but there were reasons they moved on.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
Ochai can't dribble or pass at a high level. He wasn't an effective driver with the ball, and he wasn't making his shots. I was surprised how fast the Jazz cut the cord with him, but there were reasons they moved on.
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He also barely showed any progress with us. That could be because of us and not him (hopefully not though), or then he was just slow to figure stuff out. Or maybe he needed a change of scenery to wake him up.

I was one of his biggest fans so it definitely hurts to see him look good. If he develops into a walmart-version of OG then I'm really gonna be sad. But I cant cry now since I wasnt crying when we traded him away either.

In fact most in here hated the Simone trade way more, and he looks like he is on his way out of the Pistons rotation.
 
I think as a general rule you should always give a young guy 3 years. Most young guys don't really figure out the NBA until year 3.
 
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HermanG said:
He also barely showed any progress with us. That could be because of us and not him (hopefully not though), or then he was just slow to figure stuff out. Or maybe he needed a change of scenery to wake him up.

I was one of his biggest fans so it definitely hurts to see him look good. If he develops into a walmart-version of OG then I'm really gonna be sad. But I cant cry now since I wasnt crying when we traded him away either.

In fact most in here hated the Simone trade way more, and he looks like he is on his way out of the Pistons rotation.
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This

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SoberasHotRod said:
I think as a general rule you should always give a young guy 3 years. Most young guys don't really figure out the NBA until year 3.
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What does it mean to "give" someone three years? I mean the dude is getting paid no matter how horribly he plays. That's guaranteed contracts for you.

Are you saying that it's unfair to evaluate and/or criticize a guy before that three year deadline? What a weird idea. These are millionaire professionals and fair game from Day 1.

If Cody was on a team trying to win (very unlikely), he wouldn't have played at all because he obviously sucks. Is that unfair too? What happened to earning your minutes?
 
Tremendous Upside said:
What does it mean to "give" someone three years? I mean the dude is getting paid no matter how horribly he plays. That's guaranteed contracts for you.

Are you saying that it's unfair to evaluate and/or criticize a guy before that three year deadline? What a weird idea. These are millionaire professionals and fair game from Day 1.

If Cody was on a team trying to win (very unlikely), he wouldn't have played at all because he obviously sucks. Is that unfair too? What happened to earning your minutes?
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I mean that franchises should not make big decisions on guys until their third year. I do also believe that fanbases shouldn't consider a guy a bust until their third year. Some guys take more or less time than that, but I believe the average time is around 3 years. Below are some numbers that I just pulled out of nowhere, but I actually somewhat believe.

Year Level of Confidence in Evaluating their future career
1 40%
2 50%
3 75%

I'm not saying you can't be critical or comment on a guy until year 3. Fans and people can do whatever they want. I personally try to keep things in the present tense though when evaluating young guys.
 
Agbaji is fine as a 3&D now that he's making 3's. He's playing better just in time for that 2nd contract. The Jazz lost interest when they realized he can't dribble. He's also about to turn 25 so probably too old for the rebuild.

When Utah actually has a young star to build around they will need to add 1-2 3&D types but there's really no rush at this point. Agbaji is also not big enough to defend the bigger Tatum size wings which will also suppress his value.

He appears to be a good guy so I'm personally happy for him although he's not a needle mover and the Raps are still a bad team. The Jazz basically got Collier for him who might or might not have the bigger ceiling but at least can dribble/pass which the Jazz want from their guards. If Ochai deserved 3 years so does Collier.
 
It's an asset management question: KO + (a now useful) Agbaji for Isaiah Collier doesn't look great - although Collier is 4.5 years younger than Ochai.

This is year 3 since tearing down the previous team, and there aren't many positives to date - whether you actually enjoy watching basketball or only pay attention to transactions and championship potential.
 
I was not at all bullish on Ochai, but trading him and KO for a late 1st in a bad draft felt like a not great move. Especially since the only way you could sell that was the tanking implications and we used that pick to draft - what is to date, anyway - one of the biggest busts in franchise history.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I was not at all bullish on Ochai, but trading him and KO for a late 1st in a bad draft felt like a not great move. Especially since the only way you could sell that was the tanking implications and we used that pick to draft - what is to date, anyway - one of the biggest busts in franchise history.
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This 100%.
 
GVC said:
It's an asset management question: KO + (a now useful) Agbaji for Isaiah Collier doesn't look great - although Collier is 4.5 years younger than Ochai.

This is year 3 since tearing down the previous team, and there aren't many positives to date - whether you actually enjoy watching basketball or only pay attention to transactions and championship potential.
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I have said before, I am fine with tanking and fine with rebuilding but there is zero sense to the timeline and process this FO has used to do so. What we are doing right now should have been year 1 or we should have hung on to one of our All Stars and built around them - which was very doable.
 
jazznik said:
Update: Agbaji keeps playing very, very well. He is now the guy with the 6th best 3PT% in the NBA, producing 12 PPG (54% - 49%) and 4.5 RPG. He also markedly improved his assist and steal count while still being very low on on turnovers. And Ochai still plays a very good defense.

This season Agbaji became one of the best 3-and-D guys in the NBA. Which is especially funny since now our expectations (hopes?) are that if everything goes right Cody Williams can - in a couple of years - become someone like Ochai.
Click to expand...
Gotta love those crystal balls.
 
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