Alec Baldwin shoots and kills one, injures another.

[infection]

He didn't kill another actor. He killed a cinematographer and injured a director.

Two people. Two people who should have never been shot even with a prop gun.

I want to know WTF was going on on that set.

Here's a KSL article that provides some additional info as to how this stuff is supposed to work.

How can a prop gun kill? Utah expert says only after multiple safety failures

A Utah firearms expert said the tragic death on the set of Alec Baldwin's new movie could only have occurred as the result of basic safety measures being ignored at multiple levels.

www.ksl.com

I only know this story from people talking about it and probably won't get too deep into it, but I just read the KSL article and the thing that stands out to me is that this film is apparently set in the 1800s. The question was obviously asked about why live ammo was in a prop gun, but even more curious is that this prop gun would be an 1800s gun and presumably require specific ammo that perhaps you can't just go and get (I have no idea, I'm not a huge gun enthusiast).

 

[LogGrad98]

I only know this story from people talking about it and probably won't get too deep into it, but I just read the KSL article and the thing that stands out to me is that this film is apparently set in the 1800s. The question was obviously asked about why live ammo was in a prop gun, but even more curious is that this prop gun would be an 1800s gun and presumably require specific ammo that perhaps you can't just go and get (I have no idea, I'm not a huge gun enthusiast).

Prop guns are usually replicas. Depends on how important the gun is to the story. In the Matrix, for example, they used desert eagles and Berettas and each character had their specific gun. But they would have been modified so the action will cycle but nothing will be fired of course. Using blanks is very common. A blank load can be built to cycle the action as well. But if they really had live ammo, that's ridiculous. My thought was it was something like what happened in the crow, where the gun had a bullet lodged in the barrel so the blank charge was enough to propel the bullet and kill Lee. A live round on set is inexcusable.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I only know this story from people talking about it and probably won't get too deep into it, but I just read the KSL article and the thing that stands out to me is that this film is apparently set in the 1800s. The question was obviously asked about why live ammo was in a prop gun, but even more curious is that this prop gun would be an 1800s gun and presumably require specific ammo that perhaps you can't just go and get (I have no idea, I'm not a huge gun enthusiast).

It was a Colt 45, and yes, blanks and real ammo are easy to procure for this model.

It is being reported that the crew was using this same pistol with real ammo for target practice.

A good armorer would have NEVER allowed it to be out of their possession, let alone be used with real ammo. Sheer incompetence.

 

[bigb]

Despite being very pro 2A, owning, and shooting guns my entire life, I’ve never seen (that I can recall) a blank round. They don’t look the same as a live round, right? I mean, I’d there a bullet on the end? Or is it just the “shell” or “casing” with a cover to keep the powder in (think like a shotgun shell look)?


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz

 

[LogGrad98]

Despite being very pro 2A, owning, and shooting guns my entire life, I’ve never seen (that I can recall) a blank round. They don’t look the same as a live round, right? I mean, I’d there a bullet on the end? Or is it just the “shell” or “casing” with a cover to keep the powder in (think like a shotgun shell look)?


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz

.44 Magnum Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke (50)

44 Magnum Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke (For use in Real Guns) Box of 50 Rounds These .44 Magnum cartridges are a more reliable alternative to the 5-in-1 for those using revolvers. Those using lever-action rifles should use the 5-in-1 cartridge.

www.westernstageprops.com

I'm sure that's what they were supposed to be using, or something similar.

 

[bigb]

.44 Magnum Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke (50)

44 Magnum Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke (For use in Real Guns) Box of 50 Rounds These .44 Magnum cartridges are a more reliable alternative to the 5-in-1 for those using revolvers. Those using lever-action rifles should use the 5-in-1 cartridge.

www.westernstageprops.com

I'm sure that's what they were supposed to be using, or something similar.

So they look similar to an actual round. So if an un trained/unfamiliar person were to have checked the gun, a live round could be mistaken for a blank.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Red]

There’s no denying Alec Baldwin’s role in on-set shooting tragedy

The death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins has also been painted as Alec Baldwin’s tragedy.

nypost.com

As a producer on “Rust,” Baldwin could be held culpablefor the cost-cutting, chaos and eventual hire of a young head armorer with just one stint in said job on her résumé — because, according to Deadline, multiple other armorers turned it down over low pay and high stakes, with too many firearms to manage.

“They hired someone who was insufficiently experienced,” Wolf says. “If he’s the producer, the buck stops with him.”

Retired FBI Agent Bobby Chacon, who works as a writer and consultant in Hollywood, agrees.

If fact, Chacon goes over the four basic rules of guns on sets so often that his actors roll their eyes. He takes this as a sign to keep going, because they’ve heard it all before, they know the rules, and still they listen:

1. Treat EVERY weapon as if it’s loaded, even if you’re told it isn’t.
2. NEVER point a gun at anything you’re not willing to kill or destroy.
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to kill or destroy something.
4. Know where your target is and what’s behind it (where possible).

 

[Gameface]

It has been reported that the gun in question had been used for some casual target practice the morning before the incident.

The reports about walk-offs related to safety concerns and multiple negligent discharges of firearms make this production sound like a complete **** show.

I'll wait for more info, but Alec Baldwin should probably never have anything to do with another movie or television show again in any capacity.

 

[Red]

It has been reported that the gun in question had been used for some casual target practice the morning before the incident.

Gun that killed Halyna Hutchins used by crew off-set for fun: report

The gun, which was fired by Alec Baldwin on the set of “Rust,” may have even been loaded with live rounds when it was used for what was essentially target practice.

nypost.com

“Another source who was on set told the outlet that when cops arrived they found live ammo and blank rounds stored in the same area, where the fatal mix-up could have occurred”.

 

[fishonjazz]

There’s no denying Alec Baldwin’s role in on-set shooting tragedy

The death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins has also been painted as Alec Baldwin’s tragedy.

nypost.com

As a producer on “Rust,” Baldwin could be held culpablefor the cost-cutting, chaos and eventual hire of a young head armorer with just one stint in said job on her résumé — because, according to Deadline, multiple other armorers turned it down over low pay and high stakes, with too many firearms to manage.

“They hired someone who was insufficiently experienced,” Wolf says. “If he’s the producer, the buck stops with him.”

Retired FBI Agent Bobby Chacon, who works as a writer and consultant in Hollywood, agrees.

If fact, Chacon goes over the four basic rules of guns on sets so often that his actors roll their eyes. He takes this as a sign to keep going, because they’ve heard it all before, they know the rules, and still they listen:

1. Treat EVERY weapon as if it’s loaded, even if you’re told it isn’t.
2. NEVER point a gun at anything you’re not willing to kill or destroy.
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to kill or destroy something.
4. Know where your target is and what’s behind it (where possible).

Those rules dont really apply for a movie though. I mean of course they are going to be pointing the guns at things that their not willing to kill and destroy. They are actors acting like they are shooting each other. Doesnt really work if they dont aim at the other actors.
Same for the 3rd rule.

They need to use guns that cant actually fire a bullet.


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[Gameface]

Those rules dont really apply for a movie though. I mean of course they are going to be pointing the guns at things that their not willing to kill and destroy. They are actors acting like they are shooting each other. Doesnt really work if they dont aim at the other actors.
Same for the 3rd rule.

They need to use guns that cant actually fire a bullet.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

Those are rules that apply to actual firearms. If they are going to use actual firearms on set they either need to follow those rules or have an armorer who provides greater security than those rules would, but based on the needs of a film set.

The entire production team and their rookie armorer did not meet their obligation to gun safety.

I bet based on this they will do exactly what you suggest on all movies moving forward. There will be no actual firearms on set that can fire real bullets and there will be no prop guns that use gunpowder based blanks. I don't see any other option after this.

 

[Rubashov]

Despite being very pro 2A, owning, and shooting guns my entire life, I’ve never seen (that I can recall) a blank round. They don’t look the same as a live round, right? I mean, I’d there a bullet on the end? Or is it just the “shell” or “casing” with a cover to keep the powder in (think like a shotgun shell look)?


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz

I think they have a different tip. Just the tip...

 

[Rubashov]

Those are rules that apply to actual firearms. If they are going to use actual firearms on set they either need to follow those rules or have an armorer who provides greater security than those rules would, but based on the needs of a film set.

The entire production team and their rookie armorer did not meet their obligation to gun safety.

I bet based on this they will do exactly what you suggest on all movies moving forward. There will be no actual firearms on set that can fire real bullets and there will be no prop guns that use gunpowder based blanks. I don't see any other option after this.

American's will use real guns in movie because of America. We all know it.

 

[Gameface]

American's will use real guns in movie because of America. We all know it.

I really do think this will be a turning point on that. Not on guns in general, but on real guns and guns that fire blanks used in movies. It isn't necessary.

But you might still be right.

Pew Pew, rattatatatatattt, BOOM! Freedom!

 

[babe]

.44 Magnum Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke (50)

44 Magnum Brass Blank Ammunition with Smoke (For use in Real Guns) Box of 50 Rounds These .44 Magnum cartridges are a more reliable alternative to the 5-in-1 for those using revolvers. Those using lever-action rifles should use the 5-in-1 cartridge.

www.westernstageprops.com

I'm sure that's what they were supposed to be using, or something similar.

Just cutting to the chase here, not reading the thread.

Thanks for the link, Log. I've never seen a blank round before either..

I think the problem with being a big mouth, talking without knowing anything, is mainly that it short circuits your education. You just don't listen, you just don't go learn stuff.

Off the cuff, my first reaction here is that Alec Baldwin knew nothing about gun safety or ammo, and wouldn't have known the difference if he had checked the load. His armorer guy, whom he hired, probably knew nothing as well. Apparently, from talk radio comments I have heard, no gun safety measures were taken, and a real shell from some taraget shooting earlier got mixed in.

That's about all there is to it. No murder plot, no malicious intentions involved.

Just ignorance.

OK, so I gave in read the thread...... dammit.

guns are not the problem, real or unreal.

Ignorance and negligence are the problem and always will be, with or without real guns. People will fall off ladders for god's sake. We're not going to ban ladders.

You can't make a real movie without real guns. This is America.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

This is negligence to the extreme. I wouldn't be surprised to see manslaughter charges against someone. If you are using real bullets in a prop gun that will be aimed at people, leaving bullets in it is severe recklessness.

The armorer is a 24 year old female that got the job because her father was a famous armorer. She was not qualified. It has also been reported that multiple armorers turned down the gig because of the low pay, so they hired an unexperienced person.

Most armorers own all the firearms themselves. They know the quality, condition, and they control them, keeping them locked up when not being used on set. They should be locked up when not being filmed, and only handed from the armorer to the actor and immediately back. Even blanks can be dangerous due to the pressure, so the armorer must supervise to ensure proper distances are kept, and barrels aren't actually pointed at people. Actors are also supposed to have live fire training on the guns, so they have respect for them, and understand gun safety. I'm not sure if that occurred on this film.

I'll reiterate what I said above, no qualified armorer would ever let a set firearm be used for target practice between sets. That is just insane, and sadly it ended in a life.

It is unclear if Baldwin is the producer or just an executive producer, which many actors get the title for prestige, but don't have much if any control over the set. If he was the producer, and he let all of this occur, at a minimum, he should be financially liable, although I'm sure they have insurance on set.

It will not be surprising to see criminal charges.

I don't see an issue with using blanks if you have proper controls, which 99.99% of other movies do have. The cost for CGI add-in can be prohibitive, and like CGI generally, won't look as good as the real thing. I expect that even if CA bans blanks, other states will still allow it and it will still occur, hopefully with even better safety.

 

[babe]

This is negligence to the extreme. I wouldn't be surprised to see manslaughter charges against someone. If you are using real bullets in a prop gun that will be aimed at people, leaving bullets in it is severe recklessness.

The armorer is a 24 year old female that got the job because her father was a famous armorer. She was not qualified. It has also been reported that multiple armorers turned down the gig because of the low pay, so they hired an unexperienced person.

Most armorers own all the firearms themselves. They know the quality, condition, and they control them, keeping them locked up when not being used on set. They should be locked up when not being filmed, and only handed from the armorer to the actor and immediately back. Even blanks can be dangerous due to the pressure, so the armorer must supervise to ensure proper distances are kept, and barrels aren't actually pointed at people. Actors are also supposed to have live fire training on the guns, so they have respect for them, and understand gun safety. I'm not sure if that occurred on this film.

I'll reiterate what I said above, no qualified armorer would ever let a set firearm be used for target practice between sets. That is just insane, and sadly it ended in a life.

It is unclear if Baldwin is the producer or just an executive producer, which many actors get the title for prestige, but don't have much if any control over the set. If he was the producer, and he let all of this occur, at a minimum, he should be financially liable, although I'm sure they have insurance on set.

It will not be surprising to see criminal charges.

I don't see an issue with using blanks if you have proper controls, which 99.99% of other movies do have. The cost for CGI add-in can be prohibitive, and like CGI generally, won't look as good as the real thing. I expect that even if CA bans blanks, other states will still allow it and it will still occur, hopefully with even better safety.

Offhand, I really doubt Alec Baldwin hired a stupid head armorer and sneaked a real bullit into the chamber on purpose to kill someone on his staff he could have fired non-lethally. But pointing the gun and pulling the trigger that way seems so inexplicable on any other line of reason. It wasn't a scene for the movie, wasn't in the script.

I'd look for some damn motive for real murder before I'd close this case. But it will more likely go down as negligent homicide, and there will be civil litigation over damages for sure.

Other than that, Mr. Gold Standard, have you heard of tungsten???

It has the same density as gold, and you can just electroplate a veneer of gold over a tungsten coin or bar or ingot. The Chinese know this. Need I say more????

 

[RandyForRubio]

Any semblance of proper gun safety would have prevented this.

Any time I am handed a gun, I ask whether it is loaded or not…and no matter the answer, I check for myself. Every. Single. Time. I double and triple check guns I’ve handled. This is absolutely an inexcusable accident.

 

[LogGrad98]

From what I read the head armorer was a 24 year old on her first job as the head armorer, or 2nd job maybe. Her dad was apparently a famous armorer, at least in Hollywood circles. I am sure her inexperience played into the problems here.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

Offhand, I really doubt Alec Baldwin hired a stupid head armorer and sneaked a real bullit into the chamber on purpose to kill someone on his staff he could have fired non-lethally. But pointing the gun and pulling the trigger that way seems so inexplicable on any other line of reason. It wasn't a scene for the movie, wasn't in the script.

I'd look for some damn motive for real murder before I'd close this case. But it will more likely go down as negligent homicide, and there will be civil litigation over damages for sure.

Other than that, Mr. Gold Standard, have you heard of tungsten???

It has the same density as gold, and you can just electroplate a veneer of gold over a tungsten coin or bar or ingot. The Chinese know this. Need I say more????

Gold plated tungsten will eventually tarnish. and the electroplate will rub off. The Chinese also make very realistic "replica" guitars, watches, etc. It may look like a duck, and walk like a duck, but it is not a duck. MMM, Peking duck.