Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (democratic socialist) wins NY primary

[Archie Moses]

Saying - I think this guy has an undeserved reputation and here's an article outlining why- is pretty manipulative.

Not surprised you don't get this.

Anyone who knows anything about manipulation owes it to themselves to read the definition of it and reconsider.

 

[Archie Moses]

Is he running for anything?

I mean I don't doubt it. The star of "The Apprentice" is our President.

Ben Shapiro most likely has more respect for our government institutions, will act in a more professional way, will make decisions based on a coherent vision and understanding of issues and will express himself clearly and intelligently. So, he's like 1 million times more qualified than Trump to be a politician. I wouldn't trust Trump to be the President of my HOA.

This actually made me laugh.

 

[Archie Moses]

Damn it.

I'm got to stop posting about Shapiro, it's just not a good idea to do on jf. I get why he's not liked by a lot, I honestly do. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to politics (insert you don't say comments here) or the moral voice for who and what to believe when it comes to certain issues. I get sucked into these conversations like no other though. After all my years on Jazzfanz I know two things 1) talking politics with differing opinions usually goes no where 2) talking anything with differing opinions usually goes no where.




Hehepeepeecaca

 

[Jazzta]

I guess we’ll just ignore the fact that Shapiro’s views in foreign policy are those of a frivilous warmongering two faced snake.

Because sending our troops to fight wars on behalf of a country that the US government has already armed to their teeth (ally they say) and risk causing a global conflict is the least we can do.

 

[Zombie]

Lol.

Quality refutation.

 

[Archie Moses]

I guess we’ll just ignore the fact that Shapiro’s views in foreign policy are those of a frivilous warmongering two faced snake.

Because sending our troops to fight wars on behalf of a country that the US government has already armed to their teeth (ally they say) and risk causing a global conflict is the least we can do.

Just because something hasn't been brought up, doesn't mean it's being ignored. Can you give further context of what you're speaking about? How bout a link?

 

[Archie Moses]

Quality refutation.

"This country is an amazing place full of opportunity. Nobody, by and large, cares enough about you to stop you from achieving your dreams. That includes you, people who are shouting out there in the audience. No one cares about you; get over yourselves. I don’t care about you; no one cares about you…That means, in a free country, if you fail, it’s probably your own fault."
Yeah, not racist. It's convenient they left out the next part that explains why he feels this way.

You know what is racist though? Sarah Jeong's tweets. I'm guessing you think Rosie's tweet was satire and a joke too, eh?

 

[Zombie]

"This country is an amazing place full of opportunity. Nobody, by and large, cares enough about you to stop you from achieving your dreams. That includes you, people who are shouting out there in the audience. No one cares about you; get over yourselves. I don’t care about you; no one cares about you…That means, in a free country, if you fail, it’s probably your own fault."
Yeah, not racist. It's convenient they left out the next part that explains why he feels this way.

You know what is racist though? Sarah Jeong's tweets. I'm guessing you think Rosie's tweet was satire and a joke too, eh?

Uh, I must have missed the part where the author said that was racist. You are certainly living up to the expectation of a Shapiro devotee so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are either misunderstanding or willfully misreprenting what's being said.
Here's the paragraphs outlining Shapiro's bigotry that you must have missed somehow.

But, well, I don’t know what else to call a statement like this: “Israelis like to build. Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage.” (Shapiro followed it with the hashtag #SettlementsRock.) Arabs like to bomb crap and live in sewage. Perhaps I’m crazy. Perhaps there’s a definition of the word “racism” that wouldn’t include a statement like that. But since the statements “Black people are violent and want to live in sewage” or “Jews are violent and want to live in sewage” would both sound… somewhat racist, I don’t see how the conclusion can be avoided. What do you call a crass pejorative generalization about an entire ethnic group? I know one word, but I’m open to others. (By the way, it’s amusing that Shapiro can see Gazan children swimming in sewage and think “Wow, Arabs must just really have a thing for sewage,” a train of reasoning roughly akin to “Wow, Haitians must really love dying in earthquakes, since a lot of them seem to have done it.” Though I am reliably informed that Shapiro is a master of logic, so I am sure there is more to this than mere simple-minded prejudice.)

Shapiro’s thoughts about Arabs are all along similar lines. Usually conservatives are careful to draw a distinction: they are not condemning an ethnicity, but rather adherents to an ideology, namely Islamism. Not so with Shapiro: for him, the problem is not Islamism or even Islam writ large. It’s Arabs: “The Arab-Israeli conflict may be accurately described as a war between darkness and light. Those who argue against Israeli settlements—outposts of light in a dark territory—argue for the continued victory of night.” Arabs “value murder” while Israelis “value life,” and “where light fails, darkness engulfs.” Arabs are therefore, as an undifferentiated unit, a people of darkness. Palestinian Arabs are the worst of all: they are a “population rotten to the core… Palestinian Arabs must be fought on their own terms: as a people dedicated to an evil cause.” The “Arab Palestinian populace… by and large constitutes the most evil population on the face of the planet.” Since they’re “rotten to the core,” there’s no such thing as a good Arab: your evil is defined by your ethnicity, by being a member of the People of Darkness and Murder rather than the People of Goodness and Light. Again, it may just be my failure to understand Facts and Logic, but I am having trouble understanding how population-level generalizations about the moral characteristics of particular ethnic groups can be anything other than bigotry.

Shapiro has been clear about the implications of his view of Arabs as a dark and murderous people. He has said that “Secular Zionism[, which] requires that Arab citizens of Israel be guaranteed equal rights,” “has always provided the seeds of [Israel’s] destruction.” Instead, “God’s road map requires the Jews to kill those who seek to kill them.” Since Arabs universally “value murder,” I can’t see how this is anything other than a philosophical justification of genocide. Shapiro has said thatArab nefariousness could be stopped without resorting to genocide, and is offended by anyone who tries to invoke the g-word to describe his beliefs. But since he has said (1) that Arabs are inherently murderous and bent on destroying Israel and (2) God permits Jews to kill those who seek to kill them, it’s hard to see how he could disagree with anyone who did advocate genocide, except on pragmatic grounds.

Shapiro once explained his actual preferred solution to the problem of the dark Arab hordes: mass expulsion. As he said, bulldozing Palestinian houses and subjecting them to curfews are insufficient “half-measures”: the only solution is to drive every last one of them forcibly from their homes and take their land:

The Arab enmity for Jews and the state of Israel allows for no peace process. The time for half measures has passed. Bulldozing houses of homicide bombers is useless. Instituting ongoing curfews in Arab-populated cities is useless… Some have rightly suggested that Israel be allowed to decapitate the terrorist leadership of the Palestinian Authority. But this too is only a half measure. The ideology of the Palestinian population is indistinguishable from that of the terrorist leadership. Half measures merely postpone our realization that the Arabs dream of Israel’s destruction. Without drastic measures, the Arab dream will come true… If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. It’s an ugly solution, but it is the only solution… It’s time to stop being squeamish. (Odd that the NYT didn’t choose to quote this passage in its profile.)

Every last Arab—even those who are Israeli citizens—must be deported, Shapiro said, because their ethnicity means that they harbor a murderous “Arab dream.” But to anyone who thinks this sounds like the textbook definition of “ethnic cleansing,” he has a firm response: “It’s not genocide; it’s transfer. It’s not Hitler, it’s Churchill.” Shapiro is referring to the Allied expulsion of German-speakers from Polish territory immediately after World War II, in which “Anywhere from 3.5 million to 9 million Germans were forcibly expelled from the new Polish territory and relocated in Germany.” Shapiro favorably quotes Churchill’s desire that “There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble … a clean sweep will be made.”

There is only one problem with the precedent cited by Shapiro: it is actually a forgotten historic atrocity, which was characterized by mass rape, torture, and murder, and left at least 400,000 people dead. Germans were interned in concentration camps and endured horrific journeys in which pregnant women froze to death. As Tara Zahra explains in a review of R.M. Douglas’s Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans After the Second World War:

After the Nazi defeat, the Volksdeutsche fled or were expelled to the West, and were stripped of their citizenship, homes and property in… “the largest forced population transfer—and perhaps the greatest single movement of peoples—in human history.” Douglas amply demonstrates that these population transfers, which were to be carried out in an “orderly and humane” manner according to the language of the Allies’ 1945 Potsdam Agreement, counted as neither. Instead…. they were nothing less than a “massive state-sponsored carnival of violence, resulting in a death toll that on the most conservative of estimates must have reached six figures.” …Ironically, then, the postwar population transfers completed a process of segregation and ethnic cleansing that Hitler himself had begun….Interned women throughout Czechoslovakia and Poland were subject to rampant sexual abuse, rape and torture. Germans were also forced to wear armbands or patches marked with the letter “N” for Nemec (German)—collective payback for the humiliation that the Nazis had inflicted on populations in the East. When they were finally transported west, the expellees traveled by cattle car, sometimes going with barely any food or water for up to two weeks. One victim recalled that each morning, “one or more dead bodies greeted us…they just had to be abandoned on the embankments.”… Douglas concludes by calling the expulsions a “tragic, unnecessary, and, we must resolve, never to be repeated episode in Europe’s and the world’s recent history.”

This is the model that Shapiro believed should be applied to the murderous Arabs. (Perhaps Israel could even have them wear patches with little “A”s on them. But that might seem a little racist, and Shapiro is firmly against racism.) Shapiro has since suggested that his position on ethnic cleansing has evolved (without admitting that he ever endorsed it), in part because large-scale population transfer is simply impractical. His position on the inherent evil of Palestinians, however, does not appear to have softened.

 

[Archie Moses]

@Zombie

I finally finished reading that article. I will admit there were a lot of things in it I didn't know about Shapiro, nor do I care to defend. There were also stretches and misleading things too imo.

I think Shapiro lacks a lot of sympathy and empathy. I relate to this to some degree and generally think what he is saying is his logical way of looking at things. He says things that are uncomfortable but to him, they are truths. I don't think he's a racist, but he's definitely said things that come off that way.

One thing I read I didn't know are super disliked was, "

First, rap isn’t music. Music has three elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm. Rap is all rhythm, very little melody, and virtually no harmony. Cultural relativists who say that Eminem is like Mozart make Barbara Boxer look like Einstein."

Damn it, Ben. *shakes fist*

 

[Archie Moses]

Uh, I must have missed the part where the author said that was racist.

You did. The very next line transitions to this, "Shapiro scoffs at all claims that racism is a serious problem facing black people."

 

[Archie Moses]

Uh, I must have missed the part where the author said that was racist. You are certainly living up to the expectation of a Shapiro devotee so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are either misunderstanding or willfully misreprenting what's being said.
Here's the paragraphs outlining Shapiro's bigotry that you must have missed somehow.

Here's his explanation of that tweet about arabs along with the whole tweet thread. You can read it or watch it.
"I haven’t deleted the tweet because to do so would be to suggest that I agree with the Left’s framing of the tweet — which I do not. I was specifically tweeting about Arab leadership in the Arab-Israeli conflict. In the same way those on the Left say “Russians hacked the election” when referring to the Russian government, I said “Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage” while referring to the Palestinian terrorist governments of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and their political supporters, who have shifted tens of millions of dollars from building up the lives of their citizens toward terrorism and bloodshed."
https://www.dailywire.com/news/30487/left-idiotically-takes-8-year-old-tweet-out-ben-shapiro

Not his brightest moment for sure.

 

[Zombie]

You did. The very next line transitions to this, "Shapiro scoffs at all claims that racism is a serious problem facing black people."

Hmm. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I don't think claiming racism isn't a problem is racist itself. I think it's wrong, but not necessarily racist.

 

[Zombie]

Here's his explanation of that tweet about arabs along with the whole tweet thread. You can read it or watch it.
"I haven’t deleted the tweet because to do so would be to suggest that I agree with the Left’s framing of the tweet — which I do not. I was specifically tweeting about Arab leadership in the Arab-Israeli conflict. In the same way those on the Left say “Russians hacked the election” when referring to the Russian government, I said “Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage” while referring to the Palestinian terrorist governments of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and their political supporters, who have shifted tens of millions of dollars from building up the lives of their citizens toward terrorism and bloodshed."
https://www.dailywire.com/news/30487/left-idiotically-takes-8-year-old-tweet-out-ben-shapiro

Not his brightest moment for sure.

Yeah the hole I see there is the living in sewage part. Arab leadership aren't the ones living in deplorable conditions.

 

[Archie Moses]

Yeah the hole I see there is the living in sewage part. Arab leadership aren't the ones living in deplorable conditions.

@shoshido I should have been more specific. Arabs who actively seek Israel's destruction and who aren't wealthy oil barons.

He tweeted this too with it.

 

[Siro]

Here's his explanation of that tweet about arabs along with the whole tweet thread. You can read it or watch it.
"I haven’t deleted the tweet because to do so would be to suggest that I agree with the Left’s framing of the tweet — which I do not. I was specifically tweeting about Arab leadership in the Arab-Israeli conflict. In the same way those on the Left say “Russians hacked the election” when referring to the Russian government, I said “Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage” while referring to the Palestinian terrorist governments of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and their political supporters, who have shifted tens of millions of dollars from building up the lives of their citizens toward terrorism and bloodshed."
https://www.dailywire.com/news/30487/left-idiotically-takes-8-year-old-tweet-out-ben-shapiro

Not his brightest moment for sure.

That stuff about terrorist Palestinians is a lie as well. Israel is extremely safe, and the Israeli government will respond to the any provocation with extreme force, and with the mentality of inflicting severe collective punishment (for example, demolishing the neighborhood of a terrorist).

 

[Archie Moses]

That stuff about terrorist Palestinians is a lie as well. Israel is extremely safe, and the Israeli government will respond to the any provocation with extreme force, and with the mentality of inflicting severe collective punishment (for example, demolishing the neighborhood of a terrorist).

Yeah, dude, I don't know. That tweet was from 2010 and long before I knew who he was. He did make several tweets after it trying to clear up what he meant (this was long before SJWs had mob mentality online too.)

If he said this about Arabs as a whole or anyone else today, I'd be the first to condemn it. I don't condone his tweet from 2010 either.

 

[Zombie]

Came across this this morning, figured I'd ruin everyone else's day with it too haha

 

[Ron Mexico]

This wasn't Shapiro's best debate, but I enjoyed it. I don't mind TYTs, but Cenk wasn't the best to step up to Shapiro.

So I watched a good chunk of this. Shaprio seems to be very quick witted and smart. He is good at arguing. But he is definitely more of a lawyer. He is trying to convince the crowd to agree with him and confuse or twist up the other person. He isnt concerned with the truth or good logic.

I am not stating my opinions on these subjects or even that I disagree with either person just stating the problems with his logic.

His first argument is he uses the taking something to the extreme logical fallacy. Its a silly tactic that makes your opponent statement look bad. But that is changing the argument and taking it to the extreme so it is easy to knock down. He just keeps pushing the issue and talking fast with his strawman argument. His goal is never the truth or facts, just to mix up the other person.

Then he tries to change the subject once he feels like he has won. Again he isnt trying to convey good information or have a good debate about truth he is just trying to win the argument.

He uses the either or logical fallacy to try and win the argument. He basically uses every logical fallacy he can to try and win.

I personally dont have a lot of respect for these tactics in debating. He might win the debate in the crowds mind but its using bully tactics and poor logic. I think it makes him look bad to me. Thats not to say he isnt smart. He obviously is smart and knows that he is using these tactics to win the debate.

Cenk gets "beat" in the debate and flustered even though he is trying to talk about facts and use good logic for his argument. But he gets flustered by Shapiro and the crowd and then is an *** to the crowd. Cenk comes off looking really bad in this not because of losing the debate but because he is a douchebag to the crowd and belittles them. He has decent logic but isnt as quick with his thoughts and words and obviously isnt always aware of the logical fallacy tactics Shapiro is using. Cenk also falls into the category that many people do where he simply thinks and states that people who are opposed to him are dumb. I dislike that as well. Although almost everyone falls into that category at some point on some argument on both sides of every debate.

This video is also edited to show the good parts of Shapiro and cuts out Cenk if he makes any good points and leaves in when he doesnt make a good point.

The other problem with this debate is that both of these people are arguing for the their side (Republican or Democrat) being right and the other wrong. That automatically leads to a poor debate. No one should agree with Republicans or Democrats on every issue. If you do it probably means that you have given in to the propoganda of those parties. The creation of parties was and is to compromise on certain issues so that you can push the issues you really care about. For example the most important thing to you might be a human rights issue. An example of this would be if we all had to make a flag and had to pick the colors. If I care about the color black and love that color, I group up with people that care about the color blue and green so that those can be the 3 main colors. I might not like blue or green but I care enough about black that I am willing to group up with them so that black is one of the main colors. That gives all of us a higher chance of getting our color on the flag then if we just were organized with other people that only liked black.

 

[gandalfe]

I'd love to see the debate. I've seen a few where Shapiro doesn't destroy his contestant, but for the most part, he walks circles around people. The dude can spew facts faster than the micro machine man can.

That tactic is called the Gish Gallop. Basically, you blast out a ton of points, and if your opponent cannot answer every single one of them, you claim victory.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Ron said logic a bunch of times.