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Anti Trans Laws

However, let's look carefully at "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade..."
That actually leaves off one of the most important parts, that's getting no attention.

"in Kindergarten through third grade or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards"

The K-3 is getting the most press, because that's spelled out and most people would probably agree that discussing these topics in an in depth way is probably not right for kids that young. But the second part of that "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" means that if ANYONE said it was inappropriate at any grade level, they could conceivably shut it down. So when Johnny goes to his AP Social Studies teacher when they're 17 and says they're actually Jenny, the teacher couldn't discuss it with them. THAT'S the real intent. It has a chilling effect, too, of course.
 
the second part of that "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" means that if ANYONE said it was inappropriate at any grade level, they could conceivably shut it down. So when Johnny goes to his AP Social Studies teacher when they're 17 and says they're actually Jenny, the teacher couldn't discuss it with them. THAT'S the real intent. It has a chilling effect, too, of course.
For the sake of argument, let's say everything you state here is true. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?
 
For the sake of argument, let's say everything you state here is true. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?
What is the data? I know you said some stuff, but only in vague terms. If the data is part of your argument, provide the data.

Also, let me be absolutely clear about something: Your repeated use the the term "biological males" to refer to trans women and girls, when you have been told repeatedly that it is wrong and reductive, is both offensive and abusive. It's clearly hate speech, and will be treated as such.
 
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The K-3 is getting the most press, because that's spelled out and most people would probably agree that discussing these topics in an in depth way is probably not right for kids that young.
I think a discussion of "good touch, bad touch" is pretty appropriate even in Kindergarten. This law seems to make that illegal.

But the second part of that "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" means that if ANYONE said it was inappropriate at any grade level, they could conceivably shut it down. So when Johnny goes to his AP Social Studies teacher when they're 17 and says they're actually Jenny, the teacher couldn't discuss it with them. THAT'S the real intent. It has a chilling effect, too, of course.
From what I can tell, it's just a bad law, which is what happens when you take hate and try to dress it up as a law supporting equal treatment.
 
For the sake of argument, let's say everything you state here is true. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?
To be clear, you are taking he position that talking about being trans increases the chance of suicide, as opposed to being trans. So, that's the type of data you need to provide to make your case.
 
What is the data? I know you said some stuff, but only in vague terms. If the data is part of your argument, provide the data.

Also, let me be absolutely clear about something: Your repeated use the the term "biological males" to refer to trans women and girls, when you have been told repeatedly that it is wrong and reductive, is both offensive and abusive. It's clearly hate speech, and will be treated as such.
Agreed. Suicide rates are high for trans people, and data doesn't show that hormone treatment or surgery lowers the rate. That does not mean that having gender affirming treatment is causing suicide, it just unfortunately isn't preventing it. It is a very complicated topic, where you mind's view of your gender does not jell with your body. I believe that all trans people should have full support for any type of treatment they think will help. Whether that be therapy, hormones, surgery, etc. Every avenue of treatment should be available.

Permanent altering surgeries before a child can consent is probably not the best option, but without any intervention for trans persons delay can result in physical traits that may never be acceptable to them.

For families and individuals dealing with this, the decisions are hard enough as it is. We don't need political motivated rules to make those decisions even harder.
 
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What is the data? I know you said some stuff, but only in vague terms. If the data is part of your argument, provide the data.
Data that social contagion is in fact a real phenomenon in human psychology published in a peer reviewed prestigious scientific journal.

Data that indicates transgender identification rates are affected by the human psychology phenomenon described in the above linked article, also published in peer reviewed prestigious scientific journals.

Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics

Currently, we appear to be experiencing a significant psychic epidemic that is manifesting as children and young people coming to believe that they are the opposite sex, and in some cases taking drastic measures to change their bodies.



Although there is a great deal of debate over Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, the critique is typically aimed at the Rapid Onset part. That adolescents are susceptible to social pressure is well established as is the link between identifying as transgender in adolescence and suicide.



Now, answer the question you ducked earlier. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?

Being an adult means sometimes having to do the difficult thing. When that difficult thing involves your child who is clearly in pain, I don't wish that on anyone but it isn't always the compassionate thing to coddle and comfort. Transgender adolescents kill themselves more than cis gendered ones do. They commit suicide. Parents buy a headstone. There is research that has been presented many times in this forum showing that biological males who identify as transgender and do not receive gender affirming "care" nearly always grow up to be gay men. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and the gay community doesn't have the suicide problem the transgender one does. Please tell me why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?

Also, let me be absolutely clear about something: Your repeated use the the term "biological males" to refer to trans women and girls, when you have been told repeatedly that it is wrong and reductive, is both offensive and abusive. It's clearly hate speech, and will be treated as such.
It is a scientific term with a clear definition I have given multiple times and I will continue to use it to keep my words from being twisted.
 
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Agreed. Suicide rates are high for trans people, and data doesn't show that hormone treatment or surgery lowers the rate. That does not mean that having gender affirming treatment is causing suicide, it just unfortunately isn't preventing it.
100% agree with this. It isn't the gender affirming surgery or medications causing suicide. It is the identity itself. Coddling that identity is coddling suicide and schools should play no role in coddling it. For the well being of the kids they are entrusted with, they should fight it as hard as they possibly can because transgender adolescents kill themselves at an alarmingly high rate.
 
100% agree with this. It isn't the gender affirming surgery or medications causing suicide. It is the identity itself. Coddling that identity is coddling suicide and schools should play no role in coddling it. For the well being of the kids they are entrusted with, they should fight it as hard as they possibly can because transgender adolescents kill themselves at an alarmingly high rate.
And what you're saying is that schools should... I'm sorry, you're not clear. What should a teacher do if a student says "I'm transgender?"
 
It is a scientific term with a clear definition I have given multiple times and I will continue to use it to keep my words from being twisted.
You are using it wrong. This has been explained to you multiple times, like you're a child who needs to be told over and over not to pull on the kitten's tail, but you keep insisting on using it.
 
100% agree with this. It isn't the gender affirming surgery or medications causing suicide. It is the identity itself. Coddling that identity is coddling suicide and schools should play no role in coddling it. For the well being of the kids they are entrusted with, they should fight it as hard as they possibly can because transgender adolescents kill themselves at an alarmingly high rate.
If I were to pick one thing as your great talent, it would be to present evidence that directly contradicts your claims, evidence you didn't read carefully or didn't understand.

From the abstract in the PubMed article you linked:
Interpersonal microaggressions, made a unique, statistically significant contribution to lifetime suicide attempts and emotional neglect by family approached significance. School belonging, emotional neglect by family, and internalized self-stigma made a unique, statistically significant contribution to past 6-month suicidality.
Accepting a trans identity, once established, improves outcomes.

Data that social contagion is in fact a real phenomenon in human psychology published in a peer reviewed prestigious scientific journal.
This study does not touch sexual orientation nor gender transition.

Data that indicates transgender identification rates are affected by the human psychology phenomenon described in the above linked article, also published in peer reviewed prestigious scientific journals.
There is nothing prestigious about Psychological Perspectives, published by Taylor & Francis, and Ms. Marchiano's claims are based primarily on a self-selected survey of 200 people who de-transitioned.

The PLOS One paper is much better, but it refers to the parents experiences and uses the parents narratives, without talking to the children directly. It does not address in any way the health of the children.

Although there is a great deal of debate over Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, the critique is typically aimed at the Rapid Onset part. That adolescents are susceptible to social pressure is well established as is the link between identifying as transgender in adolescence and suicide.
The AAP study did not say anything about social pressure.

Now, answer the question you ducked earlier. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?
Because there is a difference between treating a condition and suppressing it. You don't cure OCD by telling people to stop obsessing.

Being an adult means sometimes having to do the difficult thing.
You, however, choose the easy thing for you (and don't pretend otherwise that it would be harder for you to adjust your mindset than to countermand your kids), that causes increased pain for the child.

There is research that has been presented many times in this forum showing that biological males who identify as transgender and do not receive gender affirming "care" nearly always grow up to be gay men.
Unfortunately, much of said research is contaminated by the confusion of gender non-conformity (which does tend to fade) with gender dysphoria, which if it persists through puberty, tends to be permanent.


There is nothing wrong with being gay, and the gay community doesn't have the suicide problem the transgender one does.
They have a lesser suicide problem. However, many people who transition go on to be homosexual in their revealed gender identity, as opposed to their birth identity, a phenomenon that puts your position to rest entirely. Trans women are not "confused gay men"; many of them are lesbians.

It is a scientific term with a clear definition
You use one definition, Rep. Cawthorn uses a distinct and non-overlapping definition, the editor of the Babylon Bee uses yet a third that does not equal either of yours. All of you insist your definitions are "biological", because you're all ignorant of the wondrous variation of human biology and the resistance to simple definitions that it offers. This means that your definition carries more social animus than precision. Not that it really matters. You've made it clear that you don't mind hurting kids in order to enforce your own social vision.

I have given multiple times and I will continue to use it to keep my words from being twisted.
No fear there, I understand you.
 
100% agree with this. It isn't the gender affirming surgery or medications causing suicide. It is the identity itself. Coddling that identity is coddling suicide and schools should play no role in coddling it. For the well being of the kids they are entrusted with, they should fight it as hard as they possibly can because transgender adolescents kill themselves at an alarmingly high rate.
Not surprising, but being treated as an outcast, being bullied, or estranged leads to suicide. If society fully supports trans people, and the suicide rates stay high, then I agree that perhaps more should be done, or we should rethink the analysis.

For years, the treatment was solely conversion type therapy. It was noted that this was not very successful, and did not lower suicide rates either. That isn't to say that gender dysphoria may be able to treated as a mental affliction, but mental health professionals realized it wasn't working, was causing stigma, so out of compassion, decided to be more accepting. I do think if a trans person wants to seek out mental health programs, conversion or otherwise, that should be their choice (it should not be thrust on them, but it should also be allowed as an option).

I believe that any transgender person will struggle, no matter what avenues of help are available. If your brain believes your gender does not match that of your body, you will unfortunately have a lot of extra stress and sadness in your life. Acceptance by the general community can do a lot to attenuate those stressors instead of exacerbating them.

The fact is, this is a very hard issue for any family dealing with this. I'm not going to restrict a parent's ability to help their child. Perhaps they make the wrong choice for their kid, but generally parents love and will do anything for their kids, so I'd prefer it to be up to the parent to make those mistakes (or right choices) without society having to interfere at every avenue as if we know better.

Until there is direct evidence that recognizing a trans persons identity as trans is causing suicide at a higher rate than not accepting these people as normal members of society, I'll continue to treat all people they way they want to be treated (except members of Clutchfans of course, they can suck it).
 
Because there is a difference between treating a condition and suppressing it. You don't cure OCD by telling people to stop obsessing.
You also don't cure OCD by affirming obsessive-compulsive behavior and encouraging even more extreme obsessive-compulsive behavior. The treatment you advocate for biological males identifying as transgender is inhumane.
 
Agreed. Suicide rates are high for trans people, and data doesn't show that hormone treatment or surgery lowers the rate. That does not mean that having gender affirming treatment is causing suicide, it just unfortunately isn't preventing it. It is a very complicated topic, where you mind's view of your gender does not jell with your body. I believe that all trans people should have full support for any type of treatment they think will help. Whether that be therapy, hormones, surgery, etc. Every avenue of treatment should be available.

Permanent altering surgeries before a child can consent is probably not the best option, but without any intervention for trans persons delay can result in physical traits that may never be acceptable to them.

For families and individuals dealing with this, the decisions are hard enough as it is. We don't need political motivated rules to make those decisions even harder.

There's not exactly a definitive source on these types of things, but I've seen at least some evidence some treatments do lower suicide rates:

 
being treated as an outcast, being bullied, or estranged leads to suicide. If society fully supports trans people, and the suicide rates stay high, then I agree that perhaps more should be done, or we should rethink the analysis.
There are many groups that are treated as outcasts, bullied, and estranged but none have the suicide rate the transgender do. Your hypothesis does not match the data.

The fact is, this is a very hard issue for any family dealing with this. I'm not going to restrict a parent's ability to help their child. Perhaps they make the wrong choice for their kid, but generally parents love and will do anything for their kids, so I'd prefer it to be up to the parent to make those mistakes (or right choices) without society having to interfere at every avenue as if we know better.
I agree, within limits, of letting parents raise their kids. The restrictions I favor are on schools and medical professionals.
 
You are using it wrong. This has been explained to you multiple times
No one has yet explained how I am using that term incorrectly because I am not using the term incorrectly. In anisogamic organisms, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes.

In humans, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes.

In fish, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes.

In kiwi fruit vines which need to be planted in a ratio of 1 male for every 4 females, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. No one assigns a gender on a kiwi fruit vine birth certificate. Kiwi fruit vines aren't born so there is no birth, but they make gametes.

In biology, the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. No one here has yet explained how that is incorrect because it is not incorrect. All the talk of variations of human this or that is only there to confuse from the biologically simple fact the difference between biological males and biological females is in the organic structures that produce gametes. I could use 'genetically assigned male at conception' if you'd prefer but I doubt you'd like it any better as it doesn't sufficiently disguise that biological males who identify as transgender remain biological males on account of the organic structures that produce gametes.
 
There are many groups that are treated as outcasts, bullied, and estranged but none have the suicide rate the transgender do. Your hypothesis does not match the data.

I agree, within limits, of letting parents raise their kids. The restrictions I favor are on schools and medical professionals.

I'm not sure your first point is universally true.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/#acps13164-bib-0028

Quotes the various suicide rates in the Netherlands from 2013-2017 as (I cannot read Dutch so cannot check their source):

43/100k trans women
34/100k trans men
15/100k cis men
7/100k cis women

I'm almost certain there are sub groups of men with rates in the range of trans individuals in the Dutch population.
 
You also don't cure OCD by affirming obsessive-compulsive behavior and encouraging even more extreme obsessive-compulsive behavior. The treatment you advocate for biological males identifying as transgender is inhumane.
In fact, OCD is pretty resistant to cures overall. For many people, you make OCD more livable by accepting their status of OCD and working with them to deal with the results of it. Much like you can't "cure" trans people by having them no longer be trans, instead you need to give them the tools to live with it.

Making people suffer to support your comfortable lie is inhumane. Further, there's no reason to bring the untruth of "biological male" into this conversation except to erase the reality of being trans. You are engaging in hate rhetoric.
 
Agreed. Suicide rates are high for trans people, and data doesn't show that hormone treatment or surgery lowers the rate.
To my understanding, this is a version of Simpson's paradox, or something like it. It's much like people who are on depression medication are more depressed than people who are not, even though depression medication is highly effective.
 
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