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Are presidents above the law?

Zombie said:
Yeah pretty much. They were pretty standard Mitt Romney supporting Republicans not that long ago, and I think they are far from alone in their transformation into something much weirder.
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Your family needs to turn off Hannity. Trump's unofficial spokesperson yells daily about the "deep state."

If the liberal "deep state" really loved Hillary so much, why did they announce days before the election that they were investigating her and not Trump?

The deep state nonsense is literally one of the dumbest conspiracies I've ever heard about. Which is saying something. Republicans have been making some pretty awful conspiracy theories this past decade.
 
The Thriller said:
I'm not sure. This type of law isn't very clear to me.

I do suspect that Trump's incessant pardoning is a message to those whom Mueller is pressuring to flip. Why else would Trump be (abusing) pardon power?
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Dude, as far as I know he hasn't pardoned anyone involved in the Mueller investigation. Stop trying to portray his pardons as related to the allegations currently against him. Intellectual honesty...

He recently made a few pardons and suggested he might make a few more. He isn't on some crazy unprecedented pardon spree.

EDIT: He's made 5 total pardons, one of which was for a black man who was convicted, in 1920, of the "White Slave Traffic Act" for driving his white fiancee across state lines.
 
Bulletproof said:
Dude, as far as I know he hasn't pardoned anyone involved in the Mueller investigation. Stop trying to portray his pardons as related to the allegations currently against him. Intellectual honesty...

He recently made a few pardons and suggested he might make a few more. He isn't on some crazy unprecedented pardon spree.
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His pardons are unprecedented. He's not even going through the time tested approval process by the DoJ. In order to avoid the scrutiny of the DoJ process, he's announcing them via tweet.

They are messages to those being investigated to stay loyal and he'll reward them. Clearly, subtle attempts at obstructing justice are still attempts to thwart this investigation.

Lets stop pretending that these pardons are normal. They aren't.
 
The Thriller said:
His pardons are unprecedented. He's not even going through the time tested approval process by the DoJ. In order to avoid the scrutiny of the DoJ process, he's announcing them via tweet.

They are messages to those being investigated to stay loyal and he'll reward them. Clearly, subtle attempts at obstructing justice are still attempts to thwart this investigation.

Lets stop pretending that these pardons are normal. They aren't.
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So because they are not "normal" you're going to continue to falsely insinuate one, that he's making an abnormally large number of pardons, and two, that they are directly related to the Mueller investigation. It is exactly this type of partisan intellectual dishonesty that makes it impossible for people to take you seriously.

and again, since it was an edit after you quoted me

He's made 5 total pardons, one of which was for a black man who was convicted, in 1920, of the "White Slave Traffic Act" for driving his white fiancee across state lines.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
The obvious thing is that the liberals are on the other side of the equation. I agree that Trump is a pig, but in many ways that is merely a response to the Dems. They crucified Bush for being a simpleton, even though he was an intelligent guy with clear but simple values. They beat McCain by rendering his hero status meaningless. They clobbered Romney because he was too much of a high-road guy to get down in the mud and wrestle.
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Trump motivated the older straight white men who are threatened by the idea sharing power with minorities, women, LGBTQ, etc, after years of privilege and monopoly power. PS -- I'm an older straight white man who is not afraid to compete with whoever.
 
Bulletproof said:
So because they are not "normal" you're going to continue to falsely insinuate one, that he's making an abnormally large number of pardons, and two, that they are directly related to the Mueller investigation. It is exactly this type of partisan intellectual dishonesty that makes it impossible for people to take you seriously.

and again, since it was an edit after you quoted me

He's made 5 total pardons, one of which was for a black man who was convicted, in 1920, of the "White Slave Traffic Act" for driving his white fiancee across state lines.
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D'Nesh DeSouza, Blagojevich, Arpaio... These aren't normal pardons.

Also, lets not forget the timing of these pardons. Most presidential pardons come at the end of their term. Rarely, do they occur in the first two years. If you're going to lecture me about being intellectually dishonest, the least you can do is get informed about how, why, and when they normally occur. I think your perception of my "dishonesty" might change if you learned a little more about the history of pardons. It might explain why so many of us who study and teach history are concerned with Trump's abnormal pardons and authoritarian tendencies. Especially when you consider the many investigations that Trump and his cartel are being investigated for.
 
silesian said:
Trump motivated the older straight white men who are threatened by the idea sharing power with minorities, women, LGBTQ, etc, after years of privilege and monopoly power. PS -- I'm an older straight white man who is not afraid to compete with whoever.
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Exactly. I'm perfectly willing to compete on an even playing field.
 
The Thriller said:
D'Nesh DeSouza, Blagojevich, Arpaio... These aren't normal pardons.

Also, lets not forget the timing of these pardons. Most presidential pardons come at the end of their term. Rarely, do they occur in the first two years. If you're going to lecture me about being intellectually dishonest, the least you can do is get informed about how, why, and when they normally occur. I think your perception of my "dishonesty" might change if you learned a little more about the history of pardons. It might explain why so many of us who study and teach history are concerned with Trump's abnormal pardons and authoritarian tendencies. Especially when you consider the many investigations that Trump and his cartel are being investigated for.
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They are not normal pardons, granted. They are early in his presidency, granted.

No need to frame them in a misleading light when you could have just been more honestly discussing the facts.
 
Bulletproof said:
They are not normal pardons, granted. They are early in his presidency, granted.

No need to frame them in a misleading light when you could have just been more honestly discussing the facts.
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huh?

You seem to agree, they aren't normal, they're very early, and claim that I'm being less than honest in discussing this? How so? What's my agenda here?
 
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The Thriller said:
huh?

You seem to agree, they aren't normal, they're very early, and claim that I'm being less than honest in discussing this? How so? What's my agenda here?
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I don't see how discussing this with you further, if you don't understand what I'm saying right now, is going to get us anywhere.
 
Bulletproof said:
Dude, as far as I know he hasn't pardoned anyone involved in the Mueller investigation. Stop trying to portray his pardons as related to the allegations currently against him. Intellectual honesty...

He recently made a few pardons and suggested he might make a few more. He isn't on some crazy unprecedented pardon spree.

EDIT: He's made 5 total pardons, one of which was for a black man who was convicted, in 1920, of the "White Slave Traffic Act" for driving his white fiancee across state lines.
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It's not at all a stretch to see Trump's willingness to use pardoning power without any process as a message to to those who might be tempted to testify against him or his family. Trump hasn't helped matters by invoking his self pardoning power in direct response to the Mueller investigation. It's really not intellectually dishonest at all to draw a line between the two.
 
Zombie said:
Yeah pretty much. They were pretty standard Mitt Romney supporting Republicans not that long ago, and I think they are far from alone in their transformation into something much weirder.
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You are not alone. This is exactly some of my family members as well. If I mention the things they used to believe two years ago in comparison to what they believe now in the Trump era, they do not know what I am talking about. It feels so 1984'ish with rewritten history. But what can you do? They are entitled to their beliefs, and I am entitled to think they are nuts.

They have become so afraid of everything and value security and white nationalism above all. They are upset that minorities are being "catered to" and have lost all sense of compassion. I'm now seeing my immediate family become people I do not recognize.
 
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JazzGal said:
You are not alone. This is exactly some of my family members as well. If I mention the things they used to believe in comparison to what they believe now in the Trump era, they do not know what I am talking about. It feels so 1984'ish with rewritten history. But what can you do? They are entitled to their beliefs, and I am entitled to think they are nuts.
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We've always been at war with Eastasia, what are you talking about Jazzgal? ;)
 
I think the death of the Romney/McCain/Moderate republicans just goes to show the power of propaganda, like Fox News.
 
I'm not excusing the left, either. They over-exaggerate and bloviate in a way that they cannot be taken seriously either. I do understand their exasperation, but they often overreach in trying to make things sound as dire as possible, which is driving people away.
 
JazzGal said:
I'm not excusing the left, either. They over-exaggerate and bloviate in a way that they cannot be taken seriously either. I do understand their exasperation, but they often overreach in trying to make things sound as dire as possible, which is driving people away.
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I think we need to get away from the "both sides are at fault" routine. That plays right into the hands of the corrupt that want to keep this divide going.

There's a difference between having a bias and outright BSing. Maddow intentionally claiming that she has Trump's tax returns (from the 1990s) and attempting to raise concerns about his taxes to get eyeballs is different from Hannity claiming that Hillary planned and organized Benghazi, put a hit on Seth Rich, and that the Philadelphia Eagles knelt down to protest the flag (while using pictures of Eagles players kneeling down and praying before the anthem).

There's a difference between a news network having a bias and a propaganda network, like Fox. There's nothing on the left that comes close to Fox News. Hell, even on MSNBC's morning show, "Liberal Joe" is hosted by a former GOP Congressman. If MSNBC wanted to imitate the Fox model and brainwash people, they'd hire Bernie Sanders to blab every morning instead of a former moderate republican. Could you imagine Fox News having a former Democrat host a major morning show?
 
Zombie said:
It's not at all a stretch to see Trump's willingness to use pardoning power without any process as a message to to those who might be tempted to testify against him or his family. Trump hasn't helped matters by invoking his self pardoning power in direct response to the Mueller investigation. It's really not intellectually dishonest at all to draw a line between the two.
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Thriller specifically mentions a "large" number of pardons being handed out left and right. That was not correct. 4 politically motivated pardons, 1 pardon of a guy who was convicted in 1920. He also strongly implies that the pardons are directly related to the Mueller investigation. That is not correct. Now, you can make an argument that they are related to the investigation in an indirect way, as a signal that he will use pardons for political and legal allies, sure. But Thriller went far, far beyond that.
 
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