CJ Miles is the man!

[gregbroncs]

Well he did a little better than I thought. 3-9, 8 pts, 1 TO, 3 reb, 1 assist, 3 steals.

Way to go CJ. Keep up the mediocre work! One day you will be Michael Jordan...um, just not today...tomorrow doesn't look too good either. But one day!!

Yes and Bell was soooo much better. 2 less points, the same rebounds, 1/3 of the steals, 3 Assists, lower FG% 1-4, all of this in 10 extra minutes. Good job Bell maybe one day you'll be as mediocre as Miles and actually earn the extra minutes your being given.

 

[candrew]

Yes and Bell was soooo much better.

Actually, yeah, he was - at least down the stretch. In the span of about 90 seconds Webster scored 7 points with CJ guarding him including 4 free throws off stupid fouls. Bell came in for CJ and forced Webster to the turn the ball over on their very next possession. Webster was a non-factor the rest of the game going 0-2 with one TO.

I've backed off the CJ hate because he's clearly making strides; but he still has his bad nights and last night was one of them.

 

[gregbroncs]

Actually, yeah, he was - at least down the stretch. In the span of about 90 seconds Webster scored 7 points with CJ guarding him including 4 free throws off stupid fouls. Bell came in for CJ and forced Webster to the turn the ball over on their very next possession. Webster was a non-factor the rest of the game going 0-2 with one TO.

I've backed off the CJ hate because he's clearly making strides; but he still has his bad nights and last night was one of them.

I've never said he doesn't. CJ is a role player and good and bad nights come with the territory. But it's irritating that guys like rainhut err I mean Loggrad come in and bash him every single time the team plays. I missed the end of this game and admit I made my post strictly based on box score. But the post I responded to also made their entire bashing about box score.

 

[LogGrad98]

Yes and Bell was soooo much better. 2 less points, the same rebounds, 1/3 of the steals, 3 Assists, lower FG% 1-4, all of this in 10 extra minutes. Good job Bell maybe one day you'll be as mediocre as Miles and actually earn the extra minutes your being given.

I never once compared the 2. Why would you? That is like saying that having dirt is ok since you could have crap instead. I expect CJ to perform. I expect Bell to perform. This thread is about CJ. Start one about Bell and we can talk about him. I was not thrilled with his acquisition since I feel he is just teertering on over the hill, and so far he has also been mediocre at best.

 

[LogGrad98]

Yay!!! CJ showed up in Cleveland. Go CJ!!

I've never said he doesn't. CJ is a role player and good and bad nights come with the territory. But it's irritating that guys like rainhut err I mean Loggrad come in and bash him every single time the team plays. I missed the end of this game and admit I made my post strictly based on box score. But the post I responded to also made their entire bashing about box score.

So I cheered when he did well in Cleveland. Then I made a prediction of how he would do in Minny and I came pretty close. Sorry I was right. I hate to burst your CJ love-bubble, but he is just not the answer. I am glad when he does well, and I said so. I am disappointed when he doesn't. I sure hope he turns into what you all think he can, but we haven't seen it in 3 years and I am not holding my breath. I am still hoping we can package a few guys and land a legit wing. If one of them is CJ, that's fine. If CJ stays, that's fine too. But we need better than him if we are to compete.

(to avoid your predictable and inevitable argument, Bell isn't the answer either)

 

[NUMBERICA]

People hate Miles because he isn't Lebron Jordan. Incredible.

 

[TroutBum]

People hate Miles because he isn't Lebron Jordan. Incredible.

Ya, nobody has ever said anything like that. Nobody has even HINTED anything like that. Cry harder.

 

[LogGrad98]

Ya, nobody has ever said anything like that. Nobody has even HINTED anything like that. Cry harder.

Except of course the CJ apologists. A couple years ago that was the CJ love mantra on the old board, that he was destined to be an all-star, destined to be the next great wing player. It got so old and tiresome, and really has never panned out. Sure hope he turns into half what they all thought he would back then. As I've said before, I am not holding my breath, but I would be happy if he did.

 

[LogGrad98]

People hate Miles because he isn't Lebron Jordan. Incredible.

Maybe some do, I don't know. I poke at the apologists that way who sure thought he would be, but he isn't. Doesn't look like he will be any time soon, no matter what they thought a year or 2 ago about his vaunted potential. I just get tired of the people who view him through rose-colored glasses. He is what he is, and it is NOT what we need. He is not the answer for us at the wing. Might be, some day, who knows, but it doesn't look like it. I for one wouldn't mind seeing him packaged to bring us a solid wing. Or package someone to bring us a wing we can partner with CJ so he can acheive his vast potential. But those for whom potential is good enough are just clueless. Gotta turn into something eventually. Gas in the tank is potential energy, but does you no good if you don't turn on the car.

 

[billyshelby]

Except of course the CJ apologists. A couple years ago that was the CJ love mantra on the old board, that he was destined to be an all-star, destined to be the next great wing player. It got so old and tiresome, and really has never panned out. Sure hope he turns into half what they all thought he would back then. As I've said before, I am not holding my breath, but I would be happy if he did.

So a guy who currently has a 15.71 PER, 5 points higher than last year, and 12th in the entire league at his position, isn't panning out? The same guy who is 23 years old?

 

[gregbroncs]

Maybe some do, I don't know. I poke at the apologists that way who sure thought he would be, but he isn't. Doesn't look like he will be any time soon, no matter what they thought a year or 2 ago about his vaunted potential. I just get tired of the people who view him through rose-colored glasses. He is what he is, and it is NOT what we need. He is not the answer for us at the wing. Might be, some day, who knows, but it doesn't look like it. I for one wouldn't mind seeing him packaged to bring us a solid wing. Or package someone to bring us a wing we can partner with CJ so he can acheive his vast potential. But those for whom potential is good enough are just clueless. Gotta turn into something eventually. Gas in the tank is potential energy, but does you no good if you don't turn on the car.

So for 3.7 Million dollars name 10 players (not on rookie scale contracts) you would rather have than CJ? No point in complaining if you don't have a reasonable example of something preferable.

CJ is not the end all be all of this team. He's a damn role player. Hate all you want or poke all you want. But in the end CJ is the 2nd best wing on the team at the moment (AK is still better overall). He has been key for us in a lot of games this season, and he is more than worth his measly salary.

CJ is a solid wing. He's just not the superstar you want him to be. Guess what the Jazz have never had a superstar at the wings. Partially because their system does not require or want it.

Potential no longer has anything to do with the CJ argument. Your living in the past from 3 years ago. CJ has become a solid role player at the wing for this team.

Your right that he is what he is, but wrong because he is exactly what our bench needs. Somebody who can actually score.

In conclusion, CJ is not perfect, CJ is not a star. CJ is a solid role player, CJ is the only real scorer on the bench for this team, CJ is good enough right now and still has quite a bit of upside that whether he gets better or not is good enough right now.

What this team really needs is Okur to get healthy and maybe a starting quality SG to start.

Numberica's post that you quoted describes you to a "T".

 

[gregbroncs]

I never once compared the 2. Why would you?

Because you have hand picked a backup to bash on and don't seem interested in solving any real problems for this team. Just continually beating on something only when it conveniently fits your complaint.

 

[LogGrad98]

So for 3.7 Million dollars name 10 players (not on rookie scale contracts) you would rather have than CJ? No point in complaining if you don't have a reasonable example of something preferable.

CJ is not the end all be all of this team. He's a damn role player. Hate all you want or poke all you want. But in the end CJ is the 2nd best wing on the team at the moment (AK is still better overall). He has been key for us in a lot of games this season, and he is more than worth his measly salary.

CJ is a solid wing. He's just not the superstar you want him to be. Guess what the Jazz have never had a superstar at the wings. Partially because their system does not require or want it.

Potential no longer has anything to do with the CJ argument. Your living in the past from 3 years ago. CJ has become a solid role player at the wing for this team.

Your right that he is what he is, but wrong because he is exactly what our bench needs. Somebody who can actually score.

In conclusion, CJ is not perfect, CJ is not a star. CJ is a solid role player, CJ is the only real scorer on the bench for this team, CJ is good enough right now and still has quite a bit of upside that whether he gets better or not is good enough right now.

What this team really needs is Okur to get healthy and maybe a starting quality SG to start.
Numberica's post that you quoted describes you to a "T".

Do you just like read one sentence then respond? Or do you read the posts at all?

The term "solid" is subjective. I do not agree that he is "solid". Better than he was 3 years ago? Sure. As for the potential part of it, that has come up in this very thread. that all he needs is more time. Try reading before accusing.

And if you also read my posts you would see that what you said above (in bold now) IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE SAID FOR 3 POSTS NOW. That we need a solid wing (i.e. neither CJ nor Bell), and if trading CJ (and maybe others) will get us that, then trade him. If we can keep CJ and get someone to play alongside him who is better to help bring him along then great. I never asked for a superstar, but that is what the CJ apologists keep making him out to be...oh but in the future. I like the idea of going after Wallace or another Bobcat since they seem to be on the verge of a fire sale and they are wing-heavy. How to do that is up to KOC, but it is an option. There have been many options laid out in the forum. I am not going to rehash them all for you here. Go read them.

Right now I do not agree that CK is even the answer off the bench. It is not all our bench needs is "someone who can actually score", but rather someone who is far more consistent. Every player has a bad game now and then, but those who get recognized for the 6th man string far more good ones together than bad ones. CJ simply does not. Maybe if he brought it night in and night out, but if he is our bench scorer we are in trouble. We need a solid 10 pt + effort night in and night out (15 would be better, but I would take consistency), not 2-15 for 6 points then a 25 pt explosion.

Your blind love of everything CJ makes it hard to discuss this with you any further. He is what we have, and no there are no real good alternatives right now. We have to accept that, but it doesn't mean we have to like it. And I root for the kid. I just wish he gave us more to root for. And unlike you I am a realist. I can see that his shortcomings far outweight his contributions. But you go ahead and keep on drinking the koolaid.

As for Numberica's comment, show me a post where I ask directly for a superstar guard. Show me one where I said I expected CJ to be Jordan James or whatever. Show me one where I said that unless CJ turns into the next Jordan or James or whatever that I will continue to hate him regardless. That is what the apologists have made CJ out to be, the next great one, it is far from what most others expect. I have simply refuted that from the beginning. The apologists have changed their tune as it has not panned out (from certain all-star to starter to "solid bench player" and "role player"). I have never changed my tune. I always said I hope CJ turns into what you thought he would be, but that I am not holding my breath.

And I certainly hope that KOC and Sloan are looking at other options and not holding their breath that CJ and his "internal improvement" is the future hope for the Jazz.

 

[LogGrad98]

Because you have hand picked a backup to bash on and don't seem interested in solving any real problems for this team. Just continually beating on something only when it conveniently fits your complaint.

I didn't hand-pick the person to talk about in this thread. Whoever started it did. Sure I have contributed, but you do a fine job of taking things out of context.

Once more since you seem to be a little dense, and you cut it out of my out-of-context quote above, because right where you stopped my quote I said this next:

THIS IS A CJ MILES THREAD. START ONE ON BELL AND I WILL CHIME IN THERE TOO.

 

[LogGrad98]

So a guy who currently has a 15.71 PER, 5 points higher than last year, and 12th in the entire league at his position, isn't panning out? The same guy who is 23 years old?

Out of curiosity who is ahead of him?

And no, based on the predicitons of all-star that then turned into starter and now have dropped all the way to solid role player, he has not panned out.

But he is only 23 (actually closer to 24). I sure hope he pans out. Or that we can trade him (and/or others) for someone who can truly carry the load.

So what you are saying is you are completely satisfied with CJ and see no need at all to inquire as to possible upgrades, since he is 12th best SG in the league and only 23 and all?

 

[Revolution 9]

******

 

[billyshelby]

Out of curiosity who is ahead of him?

And no, based on the predicitons of all-star that then turned into starter and now have dropped all the way to solid role player, he has not panned out.

But he is only 23 (actually closer to 24). I sure hope he pans out. Or that we can trade him (and/or others) for someone who can truly carry the load.

So what you are saying is you are completely satisfied with CJ and see no need at all to inquire as to possible upgrades, since he is 12th best SG in the league and only 23 and all?

PER stats are readily available at ESPN. But you're still missing the point, anyway. CJ's all around game, as measured by his PER, is dramatically improving. His +/- stats would also indicate that. But if all you look at is shooting numbers, you could easily conclude he's stagnating. There's no way the Jazz view CJ's upside as 'role player.' He's 23 and developing nicely. What he turns into is still wide open.

 

[LogGrad98]

PER stats are readily available at ESPN. But you're still missing the point, anyway. CJ's all around game, as measured by his PER, is dramatically improving. His +/- stats would also indicate that. But if all you look at is shooting numbers, you could easily conclude he's stagnating. There's no way the Jazz view CJ's upside as 'role player.' He's 23 and developing nicely. What he turns into is still wide open.

I already said he is better than he was in years past, point acknowledged previously. The bold is my concern. By PER Boozer is far better than Al Jefferson. By PER Paul is the best player in the NBA this season. The PER is a decent representation of who is performing in multiple areas of the game, but one problem with it, is that it smooths over weaknesses in the players game.

CJ's PER is improving, that is good, obviously it simply supports what has already been acknowledged, that he is better now than he was the past 2 years. But his FG% and 3pt% have both dropped year over year for the past 3 years. His FT shooting is better, that is good, and he is scoring more, but not more efficiently. If we futher break down the PER stat, his rebound, steals and assists are all better, but basically by percentage points (1.0 this year vs. 0.9 from last year in steals I believe, 1.8 assists vs 1.7 last year, but he is just shy of one whole rebound better, all in nearly exactly the same playing time). He has bumped his PER by volume of shots primarily, that is about it. He is taking 2 more shots per game, and making less than one more per game. He is taking not quite one more freethrow per game. PER, like any stat, can be deceiving. The argument could be made (I am not making it, I just wanted to point out that it could be made) that he is not really any better, rather that he has just been given a green light to shoot.

I personally think he is doing better than last year, and the year before for sure. But I can acknowledge his slight improvement while still remaining objective enough to recognize he is not our answer at wing. And if his pace of improvement is any indication, he won't be there any time soon. Extra shots and a lower FG% with very marginal increases in reb, steals, assist, etc. does make for a good formula for development. I don't want a CJ who is hitting 38% from the field on 18 shots per game, even if it does bump his PER to 20.

You are right that what he turns into is wide open, and he could get better, or worse. I just hope he gets there, or we replace him, to help us get to a championship caliber team before Deron leaves. If Deron leaves and one of the reasons is we never plugged the hole at wing that is almost universally recognized as a major weakness, well that will be a heavy price to pay for CJ's development.

 

[Jazz4ever]

I already said he is better than he was in years past, point acknowledged previously. The bold is my concern. By PER Boozer is far better than Al Jefferson. By PER Paul is the best player in the NBA this season. The PER is a decent representation of who is performing in multiple areas of the game, but one problem with it, is that it smooths over weaknesses in the players game.

CJ's PER is improving, that is good, obviously it simply supports what has already been acknowledged, that he is better now than he was the past 2 years. But his FG% and 3pt% have both dropped year over year for the past 3 years. His FT shooting is better, that is good, and he is scoring more, but not more efficiently. If we futher break down the PER stat, his rebound, steals and assists are all better, but basically by percentage points (1.0 this year vs. 0.9 from last year in steals I believe, 1.8 assists vs 1.7 last year, but he is just shy of one whole rebound better, all in nearly exactly the same playing time). He has bumped his PER by volume of shots primarily, that is about it. He is taking 2 more shots per game, and making less than one more per game. He is taking not quite one more freethrow per game. PER, like any stat, can be deceiving. The argument could be made (I am not making it, I just wanted to point out that it could be made) that he is not really any better, rather that he has just been given a green light to shoot.

I personally think he is doing better than last year, and the year before for sure. But I can acknowledge his slight improvement while still remaining objective enough to recognize he is not our answer at wing. And if his pace of improvement is any indication, he won't be there any time soon. Extra shots and a lower FG% with very marginal increases in reb, steals, assist, etc. does make for a good formula for development. I don't want a CJ who is hitting 38% from the field on 18 shots per game, even if it does bump his PER to 20.

You are right that what he turns into is wide open, and he could get better, or worse. I just hope he gets there, or we replace him, to help us get to a championship caliber team before Deron leaves. If Deron leaves and one of the reasons is we never plugged the hole at wing that is almost universally recognized as a major weakness, well that will be a heavy price to pay for CJ's development.

PER is far from a perfect stat, since it values no intangibles. +/- tends to favor intangibles, like hustle D and chemistry. It does not value any box score stats at all. CJ is excelling in both, which means his performance is not even debatable to be honest. So when a hater here says "CJ sucks", the translation is more like "he smiles to much", "he doesn't rap good", or "he isn't Lebron James".

 

[LogGrad98]

PER is far from a perfect stat, since it values no intangibles. +/- tends to favor intangibles, like hustle D and chemistry. It does not value any box score stats at all. CJ is excelling in both, which means his performance is not even debatable to be honest. So when a hater here says "CJ sucks", the translation is more like "he smiles to much", "he doesn't rap good", or "he isn't Lebron James".

Evans is ahead of Millsap in every category of plus minus. Guess Evans should start. Look CJ is performing better than he has in years past. No one is disputing that he is better now than he was then. But to sit on our hands, hoping his slow, albeit somewhat steady, improvement continues rather than looking for the pieces to compete now is sheer stupidity. CJ apologists just cannot admit that he is just not as good as they envision in their dreams, Using stats like +/- proves it. It is nearly the most worthless stat there is in the NBA. They are grasping at any and all straws that "prove" that CJ is just wonderful, when in reality he is decent, but is not going to take us anywhere. I for one want more than "decent" at the wing, which historically has been a weak spot for us since Hornacek left. So I say if it helps us upgrade, trade him. If not, I guess we have what we have. Ideal would be to trade other pieces, get a very solid wing (notice I did NOT say LBJ so you can drop that tired line from your arguments) to help bring CJ along.