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Cleveland aiming for another #1 pick?

Why would a team trade for KLove seeing how he's in the last year of his contract? They could either sign him via free agency this summer or lose him via free agency this summer. Imo, it would be ideal for the Cavs to trade KLove. But I don't think they have the assets or trading partners to make it happen. The cavs, really screwed the pooch on this one. They COULD have had Favors plus the #5. Instead, they opted for a big name player who is a one trick pony. KLove has always struck me as a player who puts big numbers on a bad team.

And to tell you the truth, I feel really bad for how badly Lebron is being misused. He's playing 38+ mins per game. That's a lot of wear and tear. For the sake of the game, someone needs to tell these coaches to start preserving him. Lebron needs to play fewer mins. Ask yourself, "What would Pops do?"
 
BTP said:
I don't know but he last time I check great teamplay and playing consistent were the most important attributes. are required to win a championship.

A no show PF on the defensive end doesn't cause too many problems as long as your team defense rotations are right and you got the inside big playing smart rim protection.

The next issue I see is that LeBron isn't playing good defense any longer. He's constantly out of stance, out of position and gambling, reaching in.
You need that defensive wing that can defend both wing spots to build a good defense. I don't know how good Varejao was every defensively or how much he had left there, but I know they currently don't have the wing defense needed to win.
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We were comparing kyrie and love vs davis...... so you bring up team play and defense.
Do you think kyrie is an unselfish player who plays great defense? How about love?

You just strengthened the argument for the brow being better than Irving/love
 
Brow >>> every player in the league right now.

You couldn't even trade me Lebron or KD for him. He's untouchable. Anyone who thinks he could be traded needs to be banned for life from this site.

He's the "next thing." If his team didn't suck so bad he's probably be on top the MVP race.

Kyrie and KLove? Puhlease. Chucking bigs and small a come a dime a dozen. Guys like the Brow come once every 10-20 years. Duncan's successor has arrived. Brow will be an all time great when everything is said and done.
 
The Thriller said:
Brow >>> every player in the league right now.

You couldn't even trade me Lebron or KD for him. He's untouchable. Anyone who thinks he could be traded needs to be banned for life from this site.

He's the "next thing." If his team didn't suck so bad he's probably be on top the MVP race.

Kyrie and KLove? Puhlease. Chucking bigs and small a come a dime a dozen. Guys like the Brow come once every 10-20 years. Duncan's successor has arrived. Brow will be an all time great when everything is said and done.
Click to expand...

None said anything about trading Brow. But I didn't really expect you to read what others posted.
 
fishonjazz said:
We were comparing kyrie and love vs davis...... so you bring up team play and defense.
Do you think kyrie is an unselfish player who plays great defense? How about love?

You just strengthened the argument for the brow being better than Irving/love
Click to expand...

Not what I was saying.

PF defense = overrated. Love, Brow are PFs. Love's defensive issues can be greatly diminished by an elite rim protector. His boxing out can be even valuable if you have a big who overhelps like Hibbert or DJ.
Brow's defensive impact is also reduced by PFs that take him out to the 3 point line and give him less opportunities to provide help inside.

I'm neither saying that Irving plays anything that even remotely resembles defense(caution, this sentence may or may not include hyberbolism)
I'm just saying that currently LeBron's defensive performance doesn't match his reputation on that end and thus you need an elite defensive wing next to him for certain assignments.
And since you need a Center that dominates defensively anyways, the great spacing that Irving and Love contribute will open the floor and especially the post for LeBron if he decides his athletic edge isn't where he wants it to be and shifts his focus more towards the "old man's game".

I was also adding that in New Orleans you don't have opportunities to strike big in free agency. They'll need to pay Asik next year his market value. They have Holiday, a PG who is a solid shooter. Above average overall, but his contract isn't cheap. He's paid accordingly.
Tyreke Evans is a big contract, he's a shaky shooter. His production is very inconsistent and the bad hero balling negates a lot of awesome plays he does from time to time.
Eric Gordon's biggest athletic moment each month is when he catches his paycheck.

If you ask me that team has a lot of flaws. May I add that they never had capspace to add him over the summer without making a major trade?
I'm just arguing that over the next 4 years Cleveland provides a better opportunity for LeBron.
 
Lol.

There's a difference between PF and C defense? I've been playing or coaching basketball for almost 20 years now and I've never heard of such a thing.
 
BTP said:
Not what I was saying.

PF defense = overrated. Love, Brow are PFs. Love's defensive issues can be greatly diminished by an elite rim protector. His boxing out can be even valuable if you have a big who overhelps like Hibbert or DJ.
Brow's defensive impact is also reduced by PFs that take him out to the 3 point line and give him less opportunities to provide help inside.

I'm neither saying that Irving plays anything that even remotely resembles defense(caution, this sentence may or may not include hyberbolism)
I'm just saying that currently LeBron's defensive performance doesn't match his reputation on that end and thus you need an elite defensive wing next to him for certain assignments.
And since you need a Center that dominates defensively anyways, the great spacing that Irving and Love contribute will open the floor and especially the post for LeBron if he decides his athletic edge isn't where he wants it to be and shifts his focus more towards the "old man's game".

I was also adding that in New Orleans you don't have opportunities to strike big in free agency. They'll need to pay Asik next year his market value. They have Holiday, a PG who is a solid shooter. Above average overall, but his contract isn't cheap. He's paid accordingly.
Tyreke Evans is a big contract, he's a shaky shooter. His production is very inconsistent and the bad hero balling negates a lot of awesome plays he does from time to time.
Eric Gordon's biggest athletic moment each month is when he catches his paycheck.

If you ask me that team has a lot of flaws. May I add that they never had capspace to add him over the summer without making a major trade?
I'm just arguing that over the next 4 years Cleveland provides a better opportunity for LeBron.
Click to expand...
New Orleans has an elite rim protector in asik. The brow can also play some center and be a great rim protector.

Tyreke could be an elite perimeter defender...... especially with a guy like LeBron on his team to demand it from him.

What elite rim protectors and perimeter defenders do the cavs have? Dion waiters and tristan thompsom?
 
fishonjazz said:
We were comparing kyrie and love vs davis...... so you bring up team play and defense.
Do you think kyrie is an unselfish player who plays great defense? How about love?

You just strengthened the argument for the brow being better than Irving/love
Click to expand...

Ssshhhhhh...

Stop making sense.
 
The Thriller said:
Lol.

There's a difference between PF and C defense? I've been playing or coaching basketball for almost 20 years now and I've never heard of such a thing.
Click to expand...

I'm not gonna reply anything useful to you any longer since you don't either. Not worth my time. I'm sorry.
 
fishonjazz said:
New Orleans has an elite rim protector in asik. The brow can also play some center and be a great rim protector.

Tyreke could be an elite perimeter defender...... especially with a guy like LeBron on his team to demand it from him.

What elite rim protectors and perimeter defenders do the cavs have? Dion waiters and tristan thompsom?
Click to expand...

Well I was arguing that the Cavs synergize on offense with LeBron in a good way on paper. In practice they're hot and cold. Having 5 minutes of very good basketball, making the extra pass and then falling into an array of bad isolations.

If LeBron can demand greatness from Brow, why can't he demand average defensive commitment from Dion, KLove and Kyrie? Sorry, but I don't buy that he can positively influence that one guy but not the others.
The thing with the Brow is he's gotta learn and that takes time. He is a guy that had an ultra late growth spurt and that means he has less experience playing close to the basket than a lot of other bigs his age. He has to rely more on his natural instincts, which are good. But building habits, the experience of seeing certain situations before they happen. That takes time. LeBron smiling at him won't suddenly add an extra level.
That's his work to put in.

And in theory Dion and Kyrie can be good defenders as well. They are mobile laterally, they can accelerate, change directions, but you know they don't really practice that **** or coast during defensive drills.
Tyreke is now in his sixth year of not giving too much crap about defense and not converting 3 pointer at an acceptable volume and accuracy. Do you really believe LeBron's presence makes him a plus defender?
 
BTP said:
Well I was arguing that the Cavs synergize on offense with LeBron in a good way on paper. In practice they're hot and cold. Having 5 minutes of very good basketball, making the extra pass and then falling into an array of bad isolations.

If LeBron can demand greatness from Brow, why can't he demand average defensive commitment from Dion, KLove and Kyrie? Sorry, but I don't buy that he can positively influence that one guy but not the others.
The thing with the Brow is he's gotta learn and that takes time. He is a guy that had an ultra late growth spurt and that means he has less experience playing close to the basket than a lot of other bigs his age. He has to rely more on his natural instincts, which are good. But building habits, the experience of seeing certain situations before they happen. That takes time. LeBron smiling at him won't suddenly add an extra level.
That's his work to put in.

And in theory Dion and Kyrie can be good defenders as well. They are mobile laterally, they can accelerate, change directions, but you know they don't really practice that **** or coast during defensive drills.
Tyreke is now in his sixth year of not giving too much crap about defense and not converting 3 pointer at an acceptable volume and accuracy. Do you really believe LeBron's presence makes him a plus defender?
Click to expand...

I was not saying that lebron would influence the brow to play D..... The brow already does that (5 blocks last night).

I was speaking of tyreke.... a player with the perfect compliment of strength, length, and athleticism to be a great defender (unlike dion who is undersized). Tyreke has also been around for a while and knows he is not the superstar/alpha dog of the team (unlike kyrie) and is at a point in his career where he might care more about winning and be more willing to listen to a guy like lebron.

Cavs have zero rim protectors and zero perimeter defenders. You were the one who brought that criteria up.
New Orleans have the brow and asik to protect the rim and tyreke is the perfect combo of strenght length and athleticism to be a lock down perimeter defender
 
fishonjazz said:
I was not saying that lebron would influence the brow to play D..... The brow already does that (5 blocks last night).

I was speaking of tyreke.... a player with the perfect compliment of strength, length, and athleticism to be a great defender (unlike dion who is undersized). Tyreke has also been around for a while and knows he is not the superstar/alpha dog of the team (unlike kyrie) and is at a point in his career where he might care more about winning and be more willing to listen to a guy like lebron.

Cavs have zero rim protectors and zero perimeter defenders. You were the one who brought that criteria up.
New Orleans have the brow and asik to protect the rim and tyreke is the perfect combo of strenght length and athleticism to be a lock down perimeter defender
Click to expand...

We can make a rep bet if Tyreke will ever make a defensive 3rd team or better ;)

Why wouldn't Tyreke listen to his coach if he's so interested in winning?

Ye I brought up rim protection. I know Asik was good in Houston and CHicago. But lately I heard something about his numbers regressing in New Orleans and I said a Power Forward can only contest shots near the basket if he is actually near the basket. Stretch PFs usually don't allow their defender to drop down low towards the basket. That was my whole point.

I don't know what metrics say about Varejao's defense, but I know he was considered pretty good a couple years ago. He had that heart surgery then that kept him out for a while.
 
BTP said:
We can make a rep bet if Tyreke will ever make a defensive 3rd team or better ;)
Click to expand...

I never said tyreke will ever be a great defender..... I'm simply saying tyreke has a better chance to be a great defender than waiters.
 
BTP said:
Well I was arguing that the Cavs synergize on offense with LeBron in a good way on paper. In practice they're hot and cold. Having 5 minutes of very good basketball, making the extra pass and then falling into an array of bad isolations.

If LeBron can demand greatness from Brow, why can't he demand average defensive commitment from Dion, KLove and Kyrie? Sorry, but I don't buy that he can positively influence that one guy but not the others.
The thing with the Brow is he's gotta learn and that takes time. He is a guy that had an ultra late growth spurt and that means he has less experience playing close to the basket than a lot of other bigs his age. He has to rely more on his natural instincts, which are good. But building habits, the experience of seeing certain situations before they happen. That takes time. LeBron smiling at him won't suddenly add an extra level.
That's his work to put in.

And in theory Dion and Kyrie can be good defenders as well. They are mobile laterally, they can accelerate, change directions, but you know they don't really practice that **** or coast during defensive drills.
Tyreke is now in his sixth year of not giving too much crap about defense and not converting 3 pointer at an acceptable volume and accuracy. Do you really believe LeBron's presence makes him a plus defender?
Click to expand...

I think you are focusing top much on what's on the Pelicans right now. If Lebron went there, some things would have had to change. I think they could have pulled it off, but they would have had to try and dump some players.

I think you could put AD and Lebron on any roster, and they immediately are contenders.

Also, Lebron can still be a great defender. I think he is just pacing himself now, because he is slowing down slightly. But he's gonna be really good to probably at least 36, maybe a little longer. His game may change some, but he's really good at a lot of things. I bet his games ages well. That means he could have been riding Anthony Davis's coattails through his prime. Say Lebron plays till he's 38. It's conceivable. Then he gets to play with AD through his 20's. That's actually a good thing. That's the one smart thing about going to Cleveland. He gets to play with younger players who will be peaking as he is aging.


Forget all this talk though. I think Kevin Durant should find a way to pair up with Anthony Davis now.
 
Quick follow up:

https://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/defense/

According to these stats for example, Davis contests 7 attempts per game. These guys shoot 49% against him. That's good, not elite.

For example in roughly the same playing time(35 min), Pau Gasol contests 10.7 shots and holds his attackers to below 47% shooting.

Asik limits attackers to 48.5% in 8.5 attempts, but plays 26 min(8 min less than Davis)

Varejao hasn't looked good by these statistics so far. Shots he attempted were converted with a 55% probability. He challenged 7 shots per game in 24 min of playing time.

Dwight Howard for example leads in that category so far this season. He limits opponents to below 38.5% shooting. His playing time is 34 min and he challenges 9.2 shots in that time.

I know this statistic isn't perfect as is no publically known defensive metric. But it indicates certain things.

And I stand by my word that so far this season LeBron hasn't been an elite wing defender, and you need an elite defensive swingman and a rim protector who getts bonus points for being a Center as there're not many Center who can operate from the perimeter in the league.
 
fishonjazz said:
I never said tyreke will ever be a great defender..... I'm simply saying tyreke has a better chance to be a great defender than waiters.
Click to expand...

I don't think he will ever be average.
Also I don't know how often you watch the Pels, but Tyreke almost always defends the bigger wings. And with 6'5 he is just as undersized to all the 6'7 to 6'9 wings as the 6'4 Waiters is to the 6'5 to 6'6 wings.

Hack said:
I think you are focusing top much on what's on the Pelicans right now. If Lebron went there, some things would have had to change. I think they could have pulled it off, but they would have had to try and dump some players.

I think you could put AD and Lebron on any roster, and they immediately are contenders.

Also, Lebron can still be a great defender. I think he is just pacing himself now, because he is slowing down slightly. But he's gonna be really good to probably at least 36, maybe a little longer. His game may change some, but he's really good at a lot of things. I bet his games ages well. That means he could have been riding Anthony Davis's coattails through his prime. Say Lebron plays till he's 38. It's conceivable. Then he gets to play with AD through his 20's. That's actually a good thing. That's the one smart thing about going to Cleveland. He gets to play with younger players who will be peaking as he is aging.


Forget all this talk though. I think Kevin Durant should find a way to pair up with Anthony Davis now.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's a bad pairing. But I look at it like this:

Duncan had Parker and Gino around him. 2 very good players with a transcendent one. The number game works.

Bryant had Pau and Bynum. Same scenario.

More incredibly difficult to handle threats manipulate the defense harder than one another unguardable player IMO.

And since he's from Cleveland and Gilbert in contrast to Benson has paid the luxury tax and has no "cheap owner" history.

And in one point I disagree. I don't think the payroll of New Orleans is easily fixable. IMO it would lead to giving up multiple draft picks to unload some contracts.
 
fishonjazz said:
I would argue that kobe/shaq > kobe/pau/bynum
Click to expand...

Oh haha. Good point. But the overall quality in the league was worse when these two were paired. Kobe Pau Bynum were very dominant with a not coked out Odom in the two years they won. So I guess that's a very close one ;)

But I'll give the Shaq Lakers the nod in that situation.

May I add the Celtics big three as a "transcendent" + 2 very good ones?
 
BTP said:
Oh haha. Good point. But the overall quality in the league was worse when these two were paired. Kobe Pau Bynum were very dominant with a not coked out Odom in the two years they won. So I guess that's a very close one ;)

But I'll give the Shaq Lakers the nod in that situation.

May I add the Celtics big three as a "transcendent" + 2 very good ones?
Click to expand...
True about the Celtics.
 
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