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Following Potential 2025 Draftees

Elizah Huge said:
That’s interesting the more I think about it. I’d much rather take an upside swing on Ace or Tre but VJ is the more well-rounded prospect overall.

Do the Jazz think like this? Who knows. I hope we take an upside swing though.
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@KqWIN has kind of ruffled some of my feathers with his Fears take. And the more I watch of him the more I think I agree. He looks like the most obvious upside swing to me. Purely skill-wise he's at an extremely high level. He has the handle, he has the creativity and flair, he has all the little hesitation. crafty misdirections and fakes. He just looks like he can get anywhere he wants on the floor with the ball. He has obvious playmaking chops. He goes to the rim and he doesn't shy away from contact there. Pretty much the only huge question with him is his shot. And even there we have a promising indicator(FT%) we can grab onto and justify picking him high. I wonder if we have his shooting stats from high school? Anybody?
 
stitches said:
@KqWIN has kind of ruffled some of my feathers with his Fears take. And the more I watch of him the more I think I agree. He looks like the most obvious upside swing to me. Purely skill-wise he's at an extremely high level. He has the handle, he has the creativity and flair, he has all the little hesitation. crafty misdirections and fakes. He just looks like he can get anywhere he wants on the floor with the ball. He has obvious playmaking chops. He goes to the rim and he doesn't shy away from contact there. Pretty much the only huge question with him is his shot. And even there we have a promising indicator(FT%) we can grab onto and justify picking him high. I wonder if we have his shooting stats from high school? Anybody?
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Higher upside than Ace and Tre?
 
stitches said:
@KqWIN has kind of ruffled some of my feathers with his Fears take. And the more I watch of him the more I think I agree. He looks like the most obvious upside swing to me. Purely skill-wise he's at an extremely high level. He has the handle, he has the creativity and flair, he has all the little hesitation. crafty misdirections and fakes. He just looks like he can get anywhere he wants on the floor with the ball. He has obvious playmaking chops. He goes to the rim and he doesn't shy away from contact there. Pretty much the only huge question with him is his shot. And even there we have a promising indicator(FT%) we can grab onto and justify picking him high. I wonder if we have his shooting stats from high school? Anybody?
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Problem is he can shoot already. 85% FT on over 6 attempts and 36.4% on C&S 3s..

He just cant shoot from motion. His misses are also all over the place. From few lowlight/analysis videos Ive seen they were mostly right rim or back rim.

Thats damn concerning.
 
KqWIN said:
I think Suggs is a good expectation for VJ. He’ll likely end up a similar player and probably around the same level. He is unlikely to be a star player, but to act like he has zero chance to make improvements and his stuck at his current skill level is kind of ridiculous.
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IMO VJ has one of the highest ceilings – if not THE highest – in this draft. Nobody's a guaranteed star, but out of everyone in the top 20, I'll be the least surprised if Edgecombe is the face of some franchise in four years. Him or Harper.

He's just a fascinating case. VJ has all the surface level talent to be a self-promoting, mean-mugging egomaniac perfect for the social media age and highlight / soundbite culture, but the kid just plays hard and competes relentlessly. It's almost like people are having a tough time pinning him down – we're so used to having kids like him trying to speak their stardom into existence from an early age and acting like the world owes them something.

The fact that he doesn't force difficult shots, hog the ball or act like a superstar (with zero NBA games under his belt) is somehow seen as a weakness. Always passing to an open teammate without hesitation is taken as proof that he's not an "alpha dog". Moving without the ball is "role player stuff". That's where we're at, and it's ridiculous.
 
Chargers Jazz Angels said:
... the game is played in shoes ...
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I've never really bought this rationalization of why we should respect the inflated shoes-on heights of basketball players (not saying you are either -- I like your post).

Do we measure baseball players' height with their batting helmet on? Do we measure boxers' weights with their gloves and shoes? Do we measure football players' weights with pads/helmets/shoes?

Why the difference for basketball players?

So I'm glad the combine has gone to shoes-off measurements, even if fans/teams don't go against the convention of preferring shoes-on measurements. (Wish they'd change from vertical leap to leaping reach, as well).
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
I was a VJ homer then I watched a couple full games. He’s nothing what I thought. I’ve also seen 5 full Tre games. He’s not a great defender but a passable defender with the chops to be decent. He also provides rim pressure but doesn’t finish well at all.

You guys… he isn’t Key at all.
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I've never called Tre Key, but if he could pass as well as Key that would be a big deal, Key is a very good passer.

Tre is on a different level as a shooter, it would be like Key if his shot went in all the time.
 
For those that have watched a lot of Tre Johnson film, what are your thought on this:

Does Tre Johnson actively avoid contact or has he just not learned how to finish through contact?
 
idiot said:
I've never really bought this rationalization of why we should respect the inflated shoes-on heights of basketball players (not saying you are either -- I like your post).

Do we measure baseball players' height with their batting helmet on? Do we measure boxers' weights with their gloves and shoes? Do we measure football players' weights with pads/helmets/shoes?

Why the difference for basketball players?

So I'm glad the combine has gone to shoes-off measurements, even if fans/teams don't go against the convention of preferring shoes-on measurements. (Wish they'd change from vertical leap to leaping reach, as well).
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The reality is ... It doesn't matter what measurement we are using as long as we are using the same measurement and not mixing and matching whenever it suits our argument(don't like Ace - oh he turned out to be super short 6'7", you like VJ - oh he's definitely 6'6" or thereabout. Pretty much no difference between those two...
 
SoberasHotRod said:
I've never called Tre Key, but if he could pass as well as Key that would be a big deal, Key is a very good passer.

Tre is on a different level as a shooter, it would be like Key if his shot went in all the time.
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I’m not sure Key is actually a better passer, but he can touch the paint fairly well. Never got shot attempts in college or in the pros, but that’s because he’s a foul merchant and those drives either turn into free throw, floaters, or a kick out to teammates. Tre doesn’t really touch the paint much and I don’t think it’s really a matter of him deciding to do it. It’s a skill that he doesn’t have.

But please nobody mistake this for saying they are the same or Key is better. Tre is on another planet as a shooter.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
For those that have watched a lot of Tre Johnson film, what are your thought on this:

Does Tre Johnson actively avoid contact or has he just not learned how to finish through contact?
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I think it's both. When there's a defender between he in the basket his heavy preference is to pullup from mid range. But I also don't think he has the skill or explosion when he does attack the rim. I know what the combine numbers say, but he's not taking off from barely inside the FT line like VJ is. And he doesn't have the craft that Fears/Kas have in the same situation. Those guys are both more skilled in that situation and way more physical. So while he could choose to attack more, I don't think he's on the level of these other guys and I'd also put him behind theoretical Ace Bailey who decides to attack the hoop.
 
KqWIN said:
I think it's both. When there's a defender between he in the basket his heavy preference is to pullup from mid range. But I also don't think he has the skill or explosion when he does attack the rim. I know what the combine numbers say, but he's not taking off from barely inside the FT line like VJ is. And he doesn't have the craft that Fears/Kas have in the same situation. Those guys are both more skilled in that situation and way more physical. So while he could choose to attack more, I don't think he's on the level of these other guys and I'd also put him behind theoretical Ace Bailey who decides to attack the hoop.
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Yeah, I'm trying to remember and it seems like he very rarely initiated contact.
 
Thought about star outcomes for VJ and the only one that seemed kind of realistic for him if is he becomes like a super elite shooter.

Then defenders would have to closeout extremely hard on him and he would be able to use his athleticism to just straight line drive to the basket. If a center came over to help, VJ is good enough to find his center for a dunk. This would also allow more back cuts for dunks for him as defenders would have to chase him close around screens.

But he has to become just an elite elite shooter.
 
I don't really see why VJ's improvement must come from shooting. I think he can improve his finishing, his handle, and his shooting. Don't think any of those these are unreasonable to improve or completely dead in the water. Surely some combination of the 3 could get him somewhere, and the better he gets at some things the less development would be required elsewhere to get to a certain level.

And just to get ahead of it, I am not saying these things a guarantee to happen. The impossibility of certain improvements just seems strange to me when these are all things that have a track record of improving.
 
I HATE his handle, he looks like he's going at 1/4th speed, he seems like he wants to look down while dribbling. I would be pretty shocked if he got good at ball handling.

My other thought is that VJ should probably be in an OKC like scheme where they're constantly gambling for steals to get out in transition and that makes him a uniquely terrible fit with Hardy's defensive scheme... Then again, hopefully Hardy stops coaching defense as he's terrible at it. VJ needs to be gambling for steals as much as possible in the NBA.
 
If I was PHI, I would take Ace at 3. But if we're looking at it from a Jazz perspective, I might just fade him. Environment is always important, but I think it's especially important for Ace. With PHI, he will be forced to take a step back. It could make him sink or swim, but this is probably the best likelihood of developing the right habits and realizing his potential. He doesn't need freedom and opportunity, he needs to be put in a box for a bit. PHI just better hope it ends up like Tatum/Brown and not like Kuminga.

I don't like Ace on this Jazz team. The tanking environment is not good for enforcing those good habits. I think the problem with Ace is nobody has every coached him correctly in his life. While I think you should be able to put trust in your coach you just extended, it's an uphill battle for Hardy to instill these habits in a tanking situation like ours. If he comes to the Jazz, I think he's head for a Rudy Gay like career and then maybe he transitions into a role player like Barnes/Wiggins later on.
 
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