help...Public school blues.

[♪alt13]

My daughter is in the 2nd grade and she is a pretty smart little critter. The first week of school they sent her home with a homework packet that was ridiculously easy for her. She is especially good at math(which took her all of 60 seconds to complete) and so in the notes I said that she can be challenged more in math. It hasn't happened.
Her school does this centers thing where they split the class into groups that focus on the same work at a time. It sounds ok because the only have so many computers and what have you, but I have realized that the purpose is so that the quick students can teach the slower ones. I asked my daughter why she has yet to complete a math challenge packet and she explained that she hasn't had time because she has to help another student with his math.
I feel like my daughter is being fed to the same mediocrity machine that I loathed in school. I have tried to look into private school but the tuition is intense and I won't send my child to a religious school. Are there any private schools in SLC that are appropriate for a secular household and hopefully affordable?(any more than $7000 would really be pushing it) If not any advice on what I can say to her school to make it clear to them that she is there to reach her potential, for her education?

I really don't want to feel like I am failing my daughter and right now I do.

P.S. I really don't want to have some bs debate about public school or my daughters responsibility to her classmates. Trolls **** off, I'm just looking for some honest advice.

 

[bigb]

My oldest is in the same boat. We looked into the honors type program for elementary age kids up here, but she would have to transfer schools and crap like that. We ended up putting her in what's called "SEM" up here. They have a couple hours every week where they meet as a group and have more challenging work. Not everybody can do it, you have to be recommended by your teacher and approved by the SEM teacher. I would think your daughter's school has something like that.

 

[Gameface]

My daughter is in the 2nd grade and she is a pretty smart little critter. The first week of school they sent her home with a homework packet that was ridiculously easy for her. She is especially good at math(which took her all of 60 seconds to complete) and so in the notes I said that she can be challenged more in math. It hasn't happened.
Her school does this centers thing where they split the class into groups that focus on the same work at a time. It sounds ok because the only have so many computers and what have you, but I have realized that the purpose is so that the quick students can teach the slower ones. I asked my daughter why she has yet to complete a math challenge packet and she explained that she hasn't had time because she has to help another student with his math.
I feel like my daughter is being fed to the same mediocrity machine that I loathed in school. I have tried to look into private school but the tuition is intense and I won't send my child to a religious school. Are there any private schools in SLC that are appropriate for a secular household and hopefully affordable?(any more than $7000 would really be pushing it) If not any advice on what I can say to her school to make it clear to them that she is there to reach her potential, for her education?

I really don't want to feel like I am failing my daughter and right now I do.

P.S. I really don't want to have some bs debate about public school or my daughters responsibility to her classmates. Trolls **** off, I'm just looking for some honest advice.

I don't know what district you're in but my son got into the ALPS program int eh Jordan District and it is far far more challenging and the students are expected to be much more independant.

 

[UGLI baby]

I don't know what district you're in but my son got into the ALPS program int eh Jordan District and it is far far more challenging and the students are expected to be much more independant.

I was in ALPS all through elementary school.

Look at me now!


£¥£ Retiring at 20,000 £¥£

 

[LogGrad98]

Make sure you make contact with the teachers. We have done so throughout all our kids school years. And we encourage our kids to talk to their teachers. But unfortunately what you are seeing is pretty standard. In first grade my daughter was put in a gifted and talented program that in essense was tutoring for kids that were not as far along. It did nothing to further her academically, but the teachers had a couple of extra little teachers helping them out.

My son goes to a charter high school. In the summer they decided to become a college-prep charter high school. So his first week he came home with 4-6 hours of homework every night. We went to a parents' meeting with the principal where she explained the new direction of the school. We all complained that the kids had too much homework and it wasn't getting them any further along. There were several teachers there too, and they all said they had made their course-work more challenging. I asked them what they did in the in-class instruction to make it more challenging, how they improved classroom instruction to get to a college-prep level. They looked like deer in the headlights and more or less said "but, but, we gave them more homework".

It is a broken system, and the best thing you can do is get involved. Not "my little Tiffany is a perfect angel you bitch you better give her her way or I'm going to the school-board" involved, but really get to know the teachers and the challenges they face, volunteer where you can, make sure you know what your kids are doing in school and why, and go to bat for them at appropriate times, and encourage your kids to take control of their education at a young age.

Good luck. I hope it makes you feel better to know you are not the only one in that boat, and that it isn't your fault. We just have to keep doing what we can to improve the system where we can.

 

[The Thriller]

Make sure you make contact with the teachers. We have done so throughout all our kids school years. And we encourage our kids to talk to their teachers. But unfortunately what you are seeing is pretty standard. In first grade my daughter was put in a gifted and talented program that in essense was tutoring for kids that were not as far along. It did nothing to further her academically, but the teachers had a couple of extra little teachers helping them out.

My son goes to a charter high school. In the summer they decided to become a college-prep charter high school. So his first week he came home with 4-6 hours of homework every night. We went to a parents' meeting with the principal where she explained the new direction of the school. We all complained that the kids had too much homework and it wasn't getting them any further along. There were several teachers there too, and they all said they had made their course-work more challenging. I asked them what they did in the in-class instruction to make it more challenging, how they improved classroom instruction to get to a college-prep level. They looked like deer in the headlights and more or less said "but, but, we gave them more homework".

It is a broken system, and the best thing you can do is get involved. Not "my little Tiffany is a perfect angel you bitch you better give her her way or I'm going to the school-board" involved, but really get to know the teachers and the challenges they face, volunteer where you can, make sure you know what your kids are doing in school and why, and go to bat for them at appropriate times, and encourage your kids to take control of their education at a young age.

Good luck. I hope it makes you feel better to know you are not the only one in that boat, and that it isn't your fault. We just have to keep doing what we can to improve the system where we can.

In other words... The principal or whoever runs the show there, decided that it would be a good business decision to be geared more towards "college preparation." Pressure was put on the teachers to create a college like curriculum. Yet, very little guidance was given from those up top. Or too much (non-applicable) guidance was given. Principals love to pass along new programs for teachers to use. The problem is, neither have the principals but it sounded nice from the person they got it from.

As a result, you have garbage instruction, given by teachers who are either demoralized or confused with the task, and principals who have big dreams and aspirations.... But... Have no idea how to accomplish them.

Yes, college prep sounds nice. But 4-6 hrs of homework doesn't do that. Better instruction, different teaching methods, and critical thinking might do that. But that might be too costly or involve teaching something controversial. Something like seeing an historic even from a different perspective. Wait what? There are other perspectives???!!! Whhaaa???

Charter schools, from what I've experienced, are even bigger jokes than your traditional public school. The only plus might be smaller class sizes. That's about it.

 

[LogGrad98]

In other words... The principal or whoever runs the show there, decided that it would be a good business decision to be geared more towards "college preparation." Pressure was put on the teachers to create a college like curriculum. Yet, very little guidance was given from those up top. Or too much (non-applicable) guidance was given. Principals love to pass along new programs for teachers to use. The problem is, neither have the principals but it sounded nice from the person they got it from.

As a result, you have garbage instruction, given by teachers who are either demoralized or confused with the task, and principals who have big dreams and aspirations.... But... Have no idea how to accomplish them.

Yes, college prep sounds nice. But 4-6 hrs of homework doesn't do that. Better instruction, different teachig methods, and critical thinking might do that. But that might be too costly of involve teaching something controversial.

Charter schools, from what I've experienced, are even bigger jokes than your traditional public school. The only plus might be smaller class sizes. That's about it.

You hit the nail on the head. Since we had that meeting some of the teachers, but not all, have cut back the homework dramatically and my son is coming home and talking about more critical thinking exercises than he ever was before.

We have had some very good luck with charter schools, but recently there seems to have really been a slide. Like you said, they are so much more focused on the business side of it rather than the education side of it than they seemed to be in the past. We will soon probably be finishing our son's education at home. He has some mental and developmental issues that make him a challenge in a normal classroom setting and he doesn't do well in large groups. With this new shift, and the still too-much homework being assigned, online/home school may end up being our best, and maybe even only, option.

 

[Stoked]

My daughter's have the problem of being bored. Their imagination and creativity are being stifled by these groups and what not. Frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[LogGrad98]

My daughter's have the problem of being bored. Their imagination and creativity are being stifled by these groups and what not. Frustrates the hell out of me.

Again, and unfortunately, there is not a lot that will be done about that within the system. It will be largely up to you to provide some of that at home.


I am a firm believer that my kids should learn as much, if not more, at home as they do at school. We have always tried to create an atmosphere of learning at home for our kids, from regularly reading with them, to finding interesting articles in the paper or online and discussing them as a family, to semi-organized political and social discussions and debate, to volunteering to help broaden horizons, you name it. The kids that get the least out of the educational process, imo, are the one's whose parents just did not take an active role in their eduction.

 

[Stoked]

Again, and unfortunately, there is not a lot that will be done about that within the system. It will be largely up to you to provide some of that at home.


I am a firm believer that my kids should learn as much, if not more, at home as they do at school. We have always tried to create an atmosphere of learning at home for our kids, from regularly reading with them, to finding interesting articles in the paper or online and discussing them as a family, to semi-organized political and social discussions and debate, to volunteering to help broaden horizons, you name it. The kids that get the least out of the educational process, imo, are the one's whose parents just did not take an active role in their eduction.

Oh I agree. Just frustrating see them go to school in a system that is just horrendous for them personally.

 

[The Thriller]

You hit the nail on the head. Since we had that meeting some of the teachers, but not all, have cut back the homework dramatically and my son is coming home and talking about more critical thinking exercises than he ever was before.

We have had some very good luck with charter schools, but recently there seems to have really been a slide. Like you said, they are so much more focused on the business side of it rather than the education side of it than they seemed to be in the past. We will soon probably be finishing our son's education at home. He has some mental and developmental issues that make him a challenge in a normal classroom setting and he doesn't do well in large groups. With this new shift, and the still too-much homework being assigned, online/home school may end up being our best, and maybe even only, option.

That's the problem I've seen with education... In general...

Is that there's a surge right now to use a business model on how to run a company and apply it to school.

While there are some positives to this the negatives BY FAR have outweighed thus far.

You have idiots at the top who are trying to immitate the Trump and come up with thee most ridiculous ideas, plans, and programs. They may wow some parents, investors, school board members, and district officials. Most of the teachers know these wont fly, will grumble among themselves, and will move along. These plans will be used for a few months until they either fall flat on their faces (like your 4-6 hr homework program) or are so straining that teachers eventually just stop doing them. There are only 24 hrs a day.

This business model has led to mindless memorization, endless power points, repetitive testing, and demoralization of the entire system. Teachers grow bored with passing out worksheets and repeating power points. Kids hate them too. But they are easy to grade, easy to measure, and wow those who hold kids and teachers accountable.

Meaning.... Kids look great cuz they're learning! Right? After all, x worksheet and x test said so!

Teachers look good because x test says that their kids are learning!

In reality, it isn't that simple. Education never has and never will be an exact science. You can measure how many IPods are sold with a few stats and power points. You cannot measure someone's education or learning by that. Unfortunately, that is what has happened to the system today.

It all stems, from both public/charter and private schools wanting to appear "more accountable" and "business-like."

Like I said, there are some positives. Teachers need to be held accountable. So i would be supportive of something like merit pay if I ever felt that man could invent a halfway fair system to judge my teaching ability. But the negatives overall, have just been overwhelming.

I seriously cannot count how many ridiculous programs and plans principals have given me that were just so stupid or unrealistic. I'm sort of surprised that more teachers weren't at your meeting to show support for cutting the homework. Maybe they just went MIA for fear of getting on the principal's bad side? or alienating brown-nosers of the faculty who love to give out boat loads of homework?

What I would do is contact the teacher. Meet with him/her after school and talk it out. For students who I knew could handle more... I'd do more... And it's cool when a parent shows that they care and are engaged. Maybe there's another teacher or program too who could challenge your child more? I know for me, in one of my classes, I had a ton of bad students/English impaired students. We went slower and easier than another class I had who all spoke English very well and were higher academic achievers.

Good luck!

 

[moevillini]

There are all types of learning that take place and don't discount the learning that takes place when a more capable student takes time to work with those who are less capable. A bit of time spent on those kinds of activities is not a bad thing.

It's still pretty early in the school year - the original post referred to work that was given the first week of school. I think it's pretty normal that things start out slow when students return after summer break. The challenges will vary as the year progresses and the curriculum may alternate easier work with more challenging work.

Is your 2nd grader your oldest? Or if you have older children who have attended the same school or school system - and what has been their experience? I think it's good to talk to other parents, particularly those who have older children and get lots of opinions before you make the conclusion that this particular school is unsatisfactory. Try not to focus on the most outspoken parents - they often have gripes that may or may not apply to your own situation.

Overall, I think my own kids received a wonderful K-12 education that prepared them well for college and life beyond and yet there were always times where I was dissatisfied with the level, content and/or methods of instruction.

 

[LogGrad98]

Oh I agree. Just frustrating see them go to school in a system that is just horrendous for them personally.

Agreed.

 

[♪alt13]

Again, and unfortunately, there is not a lot that will be done about that within the system. It will be largely up to you to provide some of that at home.


I am a firm believer that my kids should learn as much, if not more, at home as they do at school. We have always tried to create an atmosphere of learning at home for our kids, from regularly reading with them, to finding interesting articles in the paper or online and discussing them as a family, to semi-organized political and social discussions and debate, to volunteering to help broaden horizons, you name it. The kids that get the least out of the educational process, imo, are the one's whose parents just did not take an active role in their eduction.

I have always made an effort to educate my daughter from home. She completes her homework everyday, reads every night and plays math and geography games online. I will spend hours talking with her about whatever she wants to know. We talk about everything from the orbits of the planets to the atoms that make up everything we are made of. I don't think it would be fair for me to make her do the hour or two of math that she should be doing in school with dad every night. There are too few hours in a day for her not to spend some of them being a kid.

Her mother volunteered last year and I have made up my mind to do so very soon so that I can observe her class first hand.

I appreciate all of your comments, although they do make it seem like there is hope for only minor improvement in her education(school hours).

 

[LogGrad98]

I have always made an effort to educate my daughter from home. She completes her homework everyday, reads every night and plays math and geography games online. I will spend hours talking with her about whatever she wants to know. We talk about everything from the orbits of the planets to the atoms that make up everything we are made of. I don't think it would be fair for me to make her do the hour or two of math that she should be doing in school with dad every night. There are too few hours in a day for her not to spend some of them being a kid.

Her mother volunteered last year and I have made up my mind to do so very soon so that I can observe her class first hand.

I appreciate all of your comments, although they do make it seem like there is hope for only minor improvement in her education(school hours).

I think the part about being a kid is critical. They need time to exercise their imagination and create their own entertainment, and bond with other kids, and explore the world a bit, and other such things. This is where I feel strongly that homework is nowhere near as beneficial as just giving them the same time to be kids. If you think about it, most kids work the equivalent of a nearly full-time day at school, followed by hours of "overtime" in the form of homework. We wouldn't tolerate in our work life, why do we tolerate our kids being subjected to it? Especially when any connection between homework of any amount and academic performance or learning is very tenuous at best, damaging at worst.

 

[♪alt13]

I think the part about being a kid is critical. They need time to exercise their imagination and create their own entertainment, and bond with other kids, and explore the world a bit, and other such things. This is where I feel strongly that homework is nowhere near as beneficial as just giving them the same time to be kids. If you think about it, most kids work the equivalent of a nearly full-time day at school, followed by hours of "overtime" in the form of homework. We wouldn't tolerate in our work life, why do we tolerate our kids being subjected to it? Especially when any connection between homework of any amount and academic performance or learning is very tenuous at best, damaging at worst.

The amount of homework she has been given is fine. It's just enough to showcase to me the parent how she is handling the curriculum. The curriculum is structured in principle so that she can move ahead but the class is structured in a way that is holding her back. We had this problem last year and we brushed it off as a first grade thing. I don't think I want her to continue in her current school if she is never going to be given the opportunity to meet her potential. We walk to school every morning in a group and I asked the older children whether their classes did this centers thing and they do. I see the value in learning to work in a group but this is over board.

 

[♪alt13]

I also wonder if the kid that my kid is helping is getting a decent education or if he is simply copying her.

 

[moevillini]

listened to this podcast the other day - while it's focused more on education at the high school level, some very interesting points were raised.

https://www.kcrw.com/news/programs/in/in130911the_smartest_kids_in

...One thing missing from the debate has been an accessible narrative that can bring to life the striking ways our schools have fallen behind those in the world’s best performing systems, which are now in places like Finland, South Korea and Singapore [note: it was actually Poland, not Singapore]. Amanda Ripley, a talented investigative journalist for Time, The Atlantic and other magazines, has just filled this void wonderfully with her new book, “The Smartest Kids in the World--and How They Got That Way.”

Ripley followed three American kids as they studied abroad in these systems, a shrewd narrative device that lets her compare and contrast through the eyes of our kids. Her chronicle of life inside the world’s “education superpowers” holds important lessons for America in a global age. As you’ll see, Ripley’s bottom line is grim: compared to the world’s best, she says, America is simply not serious about rigorous schooling and our kids will pay the price.

 

[moevillini]

a couple of points of comparison I found interesting in the podcast:

1 - Parent participation in school fundraising, school parties, etc. is practically non-existent in these 3 countries
2 - Student participation in school sports teams is non-existent, in fact the schools don't even have sports teams. Those tend not to be school based in other countries, but more community based.

 

[TroutBum]

I was in ALPS all through elementary school.

Look at me now!

Boy, there's a solid endorsement if I've ever seen one.

Again, and unfortunately, there is not a lot that will be done about that within the system. It will be largely up to you to provide some of that at home.

I am a firm believer that my kids should learn as much, if not more, at home as they do at school. We have always tried to create an atmosphere of learning at home for our kids, from regularly reading with them, to finding interesting articles in the paper or online and discussing them as a family, to semi-organized political and social discussions and debate, to volunteering to help broaden horizons, you name it. The kids that get the least out of the educational process, imo, are the one's whose parents just did not take an active role in their eduction.

Mind if I give you my two pennies on this? I've read plenty of studies and have first hand experience with the concept of "You learn more quickly and efficiently when you're teaching/coaching as well as learning". My grappling team has this mentality and it is clearly obvious that it works. We have new guys that have only been with us for a month teaching new guys the beginner moves. Not only is it a great way for the older guys to hone their technique, but it also gives them a major confidence boost. I know, because that's what happened to me. I hear what you're saying about your kid teaching the other kid, and maybe it is a train wreck, but there are positives to it as well.

To Logs point, I agree with him that a lot, if not most of the education, needs to start at home. I'm like HH, I spend more time talking about "stuff" with my daughters than anything. My 6 year old loves science, dinosaurs, Bill Nye, Morgan Freeman, The Military Channel (she's on a WW2 binge right now), etc. I doubt she'll ever be in any advanced or gifted classes, and that's fine with me -- she gets plenty of challenge from home, and we have a lot of fun doing it.