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How many productive players have the jazz lost for nothing in return?

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Well-Known Member
As the trade deadline approaches, I've been thinking about all the assets we've lost without any kind of return. (I realize that minutes and cap-space can be gained). Anyway, I'd be interested in building a list of players who have gone on to play very productively, and for whom the Jazz did not receive any returning assets. (I realize that all expiring contracts are not equally tradable [Al, RJ, etc.])

Paul Millsap
Kyle Korver
Wes Matthews
Carlos Boozer
DeMarre Carroll
Al Jefferson

Who else?

Will we add Marvin Williams to this list?
 
Sigh. . .

We traded Boozer for a trade exception that we used on Al Jefferson.
Paul Millsap and Al Jefferson were basically turned into capspace that we used to get Jefferson and Biedrins (expirings) as well as 2 unprotected firsts plus some second rounders (best deal possible.)
Wes Matthews was "traded" for Raja Bell plus salary relief (that one didn't work out so well)
Andre Kirilenko was "traded" for the salary and structuring relief that makes the current rebuild possible.
If you can't become familiar with the whole salary cap thing, just think of some of these decisions as swapping for WalMart gift cards that can be used later to buy your Cheetos and Mountain Dew.
 
framer said:
Sigh. . .

We traded Boozer for a trade exception that we used on Al Jefferson.
Paul Millsap and Al Jefferson were basically turned into capspace that we used to get Jefferson and Biedrins (expirings) as well as 2 unprotected firsts plus some second rounders (best deal possible.)
Wes Matthews was "traded" for Raja Bell plus salary relief (that one didn't work out so well)
Andre Kirilenko was "traded" for the salary and structuring relief that makes the current rebuild possible.
If you can't become familiar with the whole salary cap thing, just think of some of these decisions as swapping for WalMart gift cards that can be used later to buy your Cheetos and Mountain Dew.
Click to expand...

I was wrong about boozer, but the rest of your post is garbage. Read again.
 
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];764456 said:
As the trade deadline approaches, I've been thinking about all the assets we've lost without any kind of return. (I realize that minutes and cap-space can be gained). Anyway, I'd be interested in building a list of players who have gone on to play very productively, and for whom the Jazz did not receive any returning assets. (I realize that all expiring contracts are not equally tradable [Al, RJ, etc.])

Paul Millsap
Kyle Korver
Wes Matthews
Carlos Boozer
DeMarre Carroll
Al Jefferson

Who else?

Will we add Marvin Williams to this list?
Click to expand...
Better add Kirilenko and Malone to that list.

It always irritates me to read posts like this.
And how many BAD contracts have we had to sit on BECAUSE that was the price to obtain an additional asset in a trade? ZERO!

Any good asset comes with a price, usually in the form of either taking on a contract or giving up a good young player and picks.

I'll give you Matthews. Jazz wanted to bring him back. Portland made an unprecedented offer for an undrafted player coming off a decent, but not fantastic year. And matching would have thrown Utah into the luxury tax, costing them essentially $9M for Matthew's first season, plus the loss of whatever they got back as a non-tax-paying team.

Korver...seriously? He wasn't on the trade market because Utah needed him down the stretch. Then he refused to take key shots - by his own admission - to protect his record. Cross that one of the list. Jazz never tried to trade him and after proving he was selfish and unreliable, didn't want to re-sign him as a FA.

Boozer? He was shopped. He was allowed (against the rules, I might add) to take a tour of multiple citiies and look for a deal. He didn't get any interest. More than likely, any trade would have entailed the Jazz taking on a bad contract with multiple years left. Oh yes, the Jazz did get an exception to use. No big deal, I realize. Oh wait, we used it to get Jefferson in a deal that KOC had been working on since the previous trade deadline.

Millsap? The rumor was Millsap AND Burks for Bledsoe. Then LAC pulled him off the market because they weren't 100% sure Paul was going to re-sign. Also, I believe the Jazz were seriously considering keeping him, along with Carroll and other vets. They were in talks with his agent right up to the time DL pulled the trigger on the GS deal. Instead, they decided to rebuild and get additional picks. Or did you want Utah to re-sign the vets, grab the 8th seed and get the 18th pick in the draft?

Jefferson? Celtics expressed interest. Reports were Collins and Barbosa. I'm sure they would have lottery-protected any pick since Al was an UFA. Wow, why didn't Lindsey jump all over that one?

How about adding that the Jazz have GS' first rounder this season and in 2017, along with other picks precisely BECAUSE they decided to conserve cap space by NOT taking on multiple year contracts. So they let the contracts of Jefferson, Millsap, Carroll, etc. expire. In KOC and Lindsey's opinion, cap space was far more valuable than taking on a declining vet or a bad contract at the deadline. And they flipped that space for additional picks and cap flexibility for next summer as well.

As for Marvin and Jefferson...please, give me an example of a trade that makes sense FOR BOTH TEAMS. I've heard Prince. I've also heard Okafor's expiring. MW and RJ are decent backups or injury insurance for contenders. But their salaries make trades incredibly difficult to pull off (as was the case with Millsap and Jefferson). They're both UFA's. No team is going to give up great assets. Maybe a first from a contender. But what contender has $7M or $11M tied up in a player they DON'T want to keep? What if Memphis or Phoenix don't want to deal? They can probably get comparable (or better) players for a cheaper price. Utah is not the only team trying to trade players.

Let $30M in contracts expire (MW, RJ, Rush and Biedrins), instead of taking on bad contracts and Lindsey has the leeway to either use around $16M (accounting for raises for Favors and Hayward, cap holds, etc.) to sign FA's or swing another deal like he did with GS. Who knows what a team might give up in the race to obtain LeBron. Can we facilitate that deal? Likely get a better asset than what he can get now. Or Lindsey signs veterans who would be much better than a bad contract and a pick in the late 20's.
 
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There is not a single team in the NBA you couldn't fault for losing productive players for little in return.

In the case of the Utah Jazz, they have actually done very well in comparison to the majority of the league. Two obvious examples I'll give here as they relate to the Jazz:

Warriors fans are not happy about giving up $24 million in expiring contracts, having to lose Carl Landy and Jarret Jack in free agency, losing two 1st round picks and four 2nd round picks all for for Iguodola. The position was already covered by the Warriors, Iggy has been playing injured almost all season, and the Warriors have a worse record than they did in comparison to last year.

Nets fans aren't happy about giving up what turned out out to be Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter, Trey Burke and Devin Harris for an aging, overpaid Deron Williams who has regressed to the point that many consider Shaun Livingston the better PG option out in Jersey.

All teams have these stories. The Jazz' story is mild.
 
framer said:
Sigh. . .

We traded Boozer for a trade exception that we used on Al Jefferson.
Paul Millsap and Al Jefferson were basically turned into capspace that we used to get Jefferson and Biedrins (expirings) as well as 2 unprotected firsts plus some second rounders (best deal possible.)
Wes Matthews was "traded" for Raja Bell plus salary relief (that one didn't work out so well)
Andre Kirilenko was "traded" for the salary and structuring relief that makes the current rebuild possible.
If you can't become familiar with the whole salary cap thing, just think of some of these decisions as swapping for WalMart gift cards that can be used later to buy your Cheetos and Mountain Dew.
Click to expand...

I agree with the OP. We have let too many assets go for nothing.

The Jazz care more about making a quick buck than they do winning a championship it seems like.

Your list can be easily picked apart. Im not going to bother though.

Just here to say sizehuge is right.
 
Hack said:
I agree with the OP. We have let too many assets go for nothing.

The Jazz care more about making a quick buck than they do winning a championship it seems like.

Your list can be easily picked apart. Im not going to bother though.

Just here to say sizehuge is right.
Click to expand...

Ok, Hack, go ahead and tell me what deals that were available that were better than capspace. I understand that the Jazz are tightlipped, but we can infer from other deals that took place what the market was at the time.
1. The Boozer for Jefferson move was sideways, and we had to make that move to keep Deron happy. Boozer wasn't coming back and almost nobody wanted him back at that point. The fact we were able to even go sideways on that was a miracle.
2. Demarre Carroll? Seriously? The guy is on his 5th Team in 4 years. We picked him up off the waiver wire. What value was there to be had for him? He is the same age as Marvin who is a better player and was under contract. We are having a hard time trading Marvin, who, as I mentioned, is a better player. If you loved Carroll he was a free agent, you could wait then sign him.
3. Millsap. Damn fine player. Knowing what you know now would you have traded him and Burks (or Kanter) for an Eric Bledsoe in a contract year + non expiring Junk? That was the offer. We have a good point and Burks who I like better and we have a couple more years of before we have to pay him. Made the right move. This left the option open for the Golden State fleece.
4. Jefferson. The only option I was aware of was from Boston and they wanted Burks as well and didn't really have much to give us (Rondo wasn't coming, that was a Jazzfanz pipe dream.) Made the right move. This left the option open for the Golden State fleece.
5. Korver. Didn't want anymore after his refusal to actually play basketball at the end of the season. Suspect all possible trading partners felt the same.
6. Matthews. Made the wrong call here, although up until this year, Matthews has been kind of "meh." He would be giving us his best season when we are trying to tank. If we really love him we will have enough cap to sign him in 2015.
7. Kirilenko, needed that sweet, sweet capspace freedom. Absolutely take that off the books.
8. Shandon Anderson. Yep should have paid that guy with a large contract, right?. Didn't trade him because we really wanted to keep him, just not at a Cadillac price.
9. Inconsequential PG that facilitated the Harpring trade. Got rid of Matt Harpring.
10. Howard Eisley. This one stung. Solid backup that we should have done a better job of keeping. I think he wanted to be here bet we nickeled and dimed him.
 
ya'll can go back through the threads I've created if you need proof that I've engaged in more nuanced discussions related to this topic. I know we've made moves in order to have future cap flexibility, gain future assets, etc. Makes sense.

That said, it also makes sense to look at assets from other angles. Out-going... In-coming... How good are we at retaining known value?* That's the suggestion here. I, for one, started scrambling for new angles when I realized we probably aren't bringing in anybody but role players with that cap space + we lost some very good talent at the prospect of a high draft pick (another plan that seems to be........).

*you don't RETAIN known value when you dump talent for cap space and picks. That doesn't mean that going for money and picks is a bad idea... but what is that evaluated against?
 
I think you can go through the list of these player decisions and see the logic behind most of them. With any move the front office makes there is an opportunity cost.

The Jazz reportedly did try to trade Millsap and probably Jefferson too. However, they didn't want to take back salary or another player that might interfere with the development of the other talent on the team. Every player has to be looked at for his value and for the cost of his deal. Saying these people left for nothing in return isn't really true, since there are always new players and free agents available to fill a roster spot. Most GMs would rather have Gordon Hayward than Wes Matthews, let alone at a lower price through this season, so whatever moves led to that upgrade would be considered worthwhile moves.

This year, the Jazz are giving more minutes to the young guys, tanking the season to get another lottery talent, and preserving cap space. In the meantime, they picked up a couple first-round picks from Golden State so the Warriors could field a team that's no better than last year's. Not a bad move. At least it's on strategy. Because the Jazz let Millsap and Al Jeffs walk, they'll have developed Favors and Kanter more, and they'll get another stud in the draft. You can't draw conclusions on those decisions until the Jazz make those picks, but it's likely that the talent the Jazz will bring back is better overall than AlSap, who couldn't get past the first round, if that. Millsap may be leading the Atlanta Hawks right now, but if the Hawks were in the Western Conference they probably wouldn't make the playoffs.
 
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];764605 said:
ya'll can go back through the threads I've created if you need proof that I've engaged in more nuanced discussions related to this topic. I know we've made moves in order to have future cap flexibility, gain future assets, etc. Makes sense.

That said, it also makes sense to look at assets from other angles. Out-going... In-coming... How good are we at retaining known value?* That's the suggestion here. I, for one, started scrambling for new angles when I realized we probably aren't bringing in anybody but role players with that cap space + we lost some very good talent at the prospect of a high draft pick (another plan that seems to be........).

*you don't RETAIN known value when you dump talent for cap space and picks. That doesn't mean that going for money and picks is a bad idea... but what is that evaluated against?
Click to expand...

The only hope a small-market team has for really contending by is drafting a star. The odds of getting a star are much higher in the lottery. The Jazz gave up being a middling team for a shot at adding another stud. The players that the Jazz gave up all had their limitations---Sap can't guard length, Al can't guard the pick-and-roll, DeMarre Carroll can't create much offense, etc. etc.
 
Now I was never an Al Jefferson hater, but: The Jazz picked him up for nothing, used him for two years, and then exchanged him for a couple of GSW picks. I see that as buying a used car, driving it for a couple of years, and then selling it for more than you paid.
 
framer said:
Ok, Hack, go ahead and tell me what deals that were available that were better than capspace. I understand that the Jazz are tightlipped, but we can infer from other deals that took place what the market was at the time.
1. The Boozer for Jefferson move was sideways, and we had to make that move to keep Deron happy. Boozer wasn't coming back and almost nobody wanted him back at that point. The fact we were able to even go sideways on that was a miracle.
2. Demarre Carroll? Seriously? The guy is on his 5th Team in 4 years. We picked him up off the waiver wire. What value was there to be had for him? He is the same age as Marvin who is a better player and was under contract. We are having a hard time trading Marvin, who, as I mentioned, is a better player. If you loved Carroll he was a free agent, you could wait then sign him.
3. Millsap. Damn fine player. Knowing what you know now would you have traded him and Burks (or Kanter) for an Eric Bledsoe in a contract year + non expiring Junk? That was the offer. We have a good point and Burks who I like better and we have a couple more years of before we have to pay him. Made the right move. This left the option open for the Golden State fleece.
4. Jefferson. The only option I was aware of was from Boston and they wanted Burks as well and didn't really have much to give us (Rondo wasn't coming, that was a Jazzfanz pipe dream.) Made the right move. This left the option open for the Golden State fleece.
5. Korver. Didn't want anymore after his refusal to actually play basketball at the end of the season. Suspect all possible trading partners felt the same.
6. Matthews. Made the wrong call here, although up until this year, Matthews has been kind of "meh." He would be giving us his best season when we are trying to tank. If we really love him we will have enough cap to sign him in 2015.
7. Kirilenko, needed that sweet, sweet capspace freedom. Absolutely take that off the books.
8. Shandon Anderson. Yep should have paid that guy with a large contract, right?. Didn't trade him because we really wanted to keep him, just not at a Cadillac price.
9. Inconsequential PG that facilitated the Harpring trade. Got rid of Matt Harpring.
10. Howard Eisley. This one stung. Solid backup that we should have done a better job of keeping. I think he wanted to be here bet we nickeled and dimed him.
Click to expand...

I hate the argument that I dont know what deals were in place. Ya, you didnt either, and neither did anyone else here. Its all speculation.


I think you went overboard with your assumptions. I dont care about half those people on those lists. My biggest gripes are as follows...

1. Not getting something for Millsap. I guarantee that a pick or two could have been had for a borderline allstar on a great contract.

2. Al Jefferson, same thing, only he was getting paid more. But still on a short deal.

3. Letting Mathews walk. It was a mistake. Period. They could have found a way to avoid the tax.


Ya, we got something eventually for Millsap and Jefferson because of cap space, but the same could have happened plus we could have traded them. Just shop for deals with the same length, but players that arent wanted.

The Jazz drug their feet on Millsap and Jefferson. Plain and simple. They kept trying to make it work, even though it was clear with two years left on their deals that they needed to be moved. They didnt play well together, we sucked, and we had two 3rd overall picks that were bigs we just obtained. Its freaking retarded that they held on to those two til the end. Its was obvious to everyone. And I dont want to hear that they weren't tradeable. Thats complete nonsense. We paid two 1st's for AL didn't we? Well does that make KOC dumb then for paying that price for a guy who isnt tradeable? Either way, its dumb what they did. They wasted two years trying to make that nonsense work. And Millsap was certainly tradeable.
 
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