Handlogten's Heros
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View: https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1518988673416540161
OOOOFF! that's tough. Less Royce coach.
I Don't Blame The Players
- Thread starter LoPo
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View: https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1518988673416540161
OOOOFF! that's tough. Less Royce coach.
LoPo
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I don't think that's all Royce's fault. The trouble is, if he's not defending an an elite level, which he definitely doesn't every game, he is so timid on offense (and when he's not timid by not shooting the ball, he seems like he's forcing himself to shoot) that he's not adding a lot.
homeytennis
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There are two ways to be an NBA coach. One is Quin's way in that you have a hard 8 or 9 person rotation and everyone else does pine. Most NBA teams use this in the playoffs. The there is the Bill Russell, Lenny Wilkens and Doug Moe way that everyone on the roster plays top to bottom. The benefit of this is you build depth, the morale of the team is generally higher and you limit injuries. So which one is correct? Conventional wisdom in the NBA right now is the Quin way but Russell and Wilkens won NBA championships as coaches. It will be interesting to see what the new owner and Ainge think.
jom2003
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Which is sad cuz Pels already tried their luck with NAW and they didn't want him. We are basically getting our hopes up for other teams rejects/failed projects
Handlogten's Heros
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At some point people might actually realize that trade was 1000% about money and NAW would be offloaded for no returning salary if we could. NAW was never really someone they actually wanted.
jom2003
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Things could change if we go full rebuild next season though. After all, we let Trey Burke run our offense for 2 seasons.
Handlogten's Heros
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I guess but that trade was not made with any thinking about a rebuild. It was all about dollars so if NAW works out it’s dumb luck…. Not some master plan.
jom2003
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Yeah but we just lack talents all around on this squad. House was waived by the tanking Rockets then got a total of 3min of PT from the Knicks before coming here. Juancho was rarely featured on the Spurs before coming here. Whiteside was not resigned by the KANGZ before coming here. Paschall fell out of the GSW rotation before coming here, and that happened when they were tanking too. So who could really say that they were surprised about us giving NAW a shot?
That's why I don't really get why people thought we are more talented than the Mavs. Royce and Conley would not be starting for any other playoff teams, let alone playing over 30min.
AlaskanAssassin
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As fans, we always have a propensity to blame management and coaching. The reality is that there is plenty of blame to go around. Without question we have a collection of very good players that should be performing better. It's hard for me to blame management when they were able to draft and develop both Rudy and Donovan. Most teams over a ten year span are lucky to draft one guy at that level. We drafted two. All the other ancillary moves didn't get the job done, but again, management gets an "A" simply for landing those guys in the draft. I'm not sure anyone could have done better with the secondary moves, it's all hypothetical anyways. As a fanbase, most of us were stoked to land Bogey, Conley, etc. When your two best players hate each other (apparently), it's hard to overcome the chemistry issues that creates (unless your Kobe and Shaq).
Blame it on Quinn? Maybe. It's possible he's just better suited as a coach that is great for young players, implementing a system to help them find NBA success. Hard to judge, but he definetly has been outcoached in the playoffs for two consecutive years.
I think we have two options. Do a "half" blow-up by trading Gobert, Conley, Bogey, and any piece that makes sense with the exception of Donovan. Move Donovan to PG full time, and build a balanced team around him (mulit-dimensional players). This option might need to include a coaching change. The other option is just to blow everythign up, and plan on sucking for at least the next few seasons.
Blame it on Quinn? Maybe. It's possible he's just better suited as a coach that is great for young players, implementing a system to help them find NBA success. Hard to judge, but he definetly has been outcoached in the playoffs for two consecutive years.
I think we have two options. Do a "half" blow-up by trading Gobert, Conley, Bogey, and any piece that makes sense with the exception of Donovan. Move Donovan to PG full time, and build a balanced team around him (mulit-dimensional players). This option might need to include a coaching change. The other option is just to blow everythign up, and plan on sucking for at least the next few seasons.
His timidness on offense is his best quality imo.
Royce's strength is that he never plays outside himself. Daniel House has committed more stupid turnovers in his limited time with the Jazz than Royce has this whole season.
He's slowly crept up his 3pt attempt rate and he's shoots it really well. Hes a perfect 5th option type
But the issue is that he has lost athletic ability as the season has gone one, making him extremely ineffective on defense and has taken away his fast break ability on offense
I understand that nobody wants him to be some sort of chucker. But at some point if he's wide open he should shoot. Instead he just passes the ball off constantly.
Handlogten's Heros
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The players get a lot of blame. They are the ones who ultimately missed shots and didn't play good defense etc.
But yeah... its a total fail all around. Its just hilarious that perimeter defense, smallball/shooting 5s have been our kryptonite and we have done nothing to address it for 3 years. It was just so easy to see it would be an issue again in this series (for me at least).
In our defense we have found a new way to fail... not making any shots at all is somewhat new... so that's something I guess.
The Jazz were built to be a system team, like the Spurs, based on a group of role players and Rudy Gobert as the main cog on both ends of the court. Both Dennis Lindsey and Quin Snyder came from the Spurs school of building a small-market team. It's the high screen-and-roll or the side screen-and-roll on offense, and screen/roll defense on the other end. The Jazz have recruited players who have limitations, but otherwise fit the system, and that includes guys like Joe Ingles, Georges Niang, Royce O'Neale, etc.
The Jazz are busy trying to run their system, which accommodates their players' limitations. However, the last few years have shown that having dynamic talent, length and athleticism on the floor will beat the Jazz's system. Other teams just try to put maximum talent on the floor and let them play out of some pretty simple sets. For a dynamic player like Mitchell, he's actually better off in that kind of free system.
I think what will happen is that the Jazz will give up on this system approach, and they'll move on from system players and probably Quin as well. They may move Gobert, but only if they get offered a deal they can't refuse.
The Jazz are busy trying to run their system, which accommodates their players' limitations. However, the last few years have shown that having dynamic talent, length and athleticism on the floor will beat the Jazz's system. Other teams just try to put maximum talent on the floor and let them play out of some pretty simple sets. For a dynamic player like Mitchell, he's actually better off in that kind of free system.
I think what will happen is that the Jazz will give up on this system approach, and they'll move on from system players and probably Quin as well. They may move Gobert, but only if they get offered a deal they can't refuse.
LoPo
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The players do what they can do with what they have. Doesn't mean they are the most to blame when they lose.
We literally don't have any great perimeter defenders. We don't have youth and athleticism. We don't have much size at all outside of our C position.
Oh and our coaching is suspect and lacks flexibility. We still haven't been able to create a plan for small ball when the whole league plans for small ball.
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We literally don't have any great perimeter defenders. We don't have youth and athleticism. We don't have much size at all outside of our C position.
Oh and our coaching is suspect and lacks flexibility. We still haven't been able to create a plan for small ball when the whole league plans for small ball.
Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
reignman40
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Holy cow, I forgot all about Ed Davis. I remember liking that pickup and talking about him with a co-worker. I swear the 2019-2020 season is the forgotten season. I was in school from January to March and got done a few days after they put the kibosh on the season. So I hardly such many Jazz games after December.
2020 bubble was bleh to me, just seemed like a cheesy tournament. I forgot about losing to Denver within days and was ready for 2021 season to start.
2021 Playoffs, Conley and DM were injured.
2022, now we have problems and Conley is washed, apparently... So we never got to see the full scope of the Conley era in the playoffs.
This myth that Quin is great for young players need to die. He is a terrible development coach. In fact it is the polar opposite. He is so stubborn with his rotations that he completely wastes opportunities to give players more than a couple garbage time minutes to develop. How many times over last 2 years were we either blowing a team out or getting blown out and he has most of the starters in with 6 minutes left. I'm guessing probably 40 to 50 times. Then when he does give them minutes it is always garbage time when he just throws everyone in. The best way to actually develop guys is to let them play with the core group of guys. Let Butler come in and play with the starters so that he can come in and focus on the little things while gaining experience.
The problem now is that guys have looked so bad that they have lost significant trade value. Conley at mid season was an actual asset that could have brought something back. Now he is likely viewed as a negative asset. There isn't a single contending team that would view him as an upgrade as a starting pg and he costs a fortune to be a backup. Someone mentioned that the 3rd year on his contract is partially guaranteed. Does anyone know what that number is? You look down our roster and suddenly players either have no trade value or have lost a significant amount of trade value in Mitchell and Gobert. That is one of the reason why I think may end up bringing most of this core back simply because we can't get rid of them. No one is going to want Royce, Conley or Gay with what they are being paid. Bogey probably has some value. Clarkson we can probably salary dump but I doubt anyone gives us much of an asset back for him. The best move may be to roll it back and try to regain trade value but the issue there is that if we are winning then gm's and owners never have the balls to sell high.