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I was thinking about it the other day...

LogGrad98 said:
I think of this in terms of personal salvation. Lucifer is like a force of nature. If he is truly the one you feel you must forgive or come to peace with to attain the blessings of the atonement, then by all means do so, and pray for him directly. Even just thinking about this may be a prompting that you need to do so, even if just in your own personal prayers. But for me I know there are bigger fish to fry, and they are in my life right now. I never really viewed it as Lucifer is the Almighty Evil Force without which we would all be angels dressed in blue jeans and t-shirts wandering around doing good to others all day. I also never viewed him as God's "muscle", who steps in to torture us because God with his white cotton gloves could never get his hands dirty that way, but hey, someone has to do it, right? I don't buy into that.
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Why do God's white gloves have to be cotton? Can't they be latex? Or rubber?
 
Howard said:
If you're going to quote the Bible, it generally helps to know what you're talking about. No need for you to be so condescending about something you don't understand or don't have knowledge about.

You're still getting it wrong btw. If you'd like to have a decent conversation and ask about it, then I will, but if you're going to be like this, there really is no point.
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Do you believe the bible to be true in a literal sense? Or just in a spiritual sense?
 
TroutBum said:
Is this from your brother?

Is Lucifer technically considered a demon? How does one become a "demon"? I would assume that child rapists and serial killers would fall into the "clutches of eternal damnation" as well, but I'm pretty sure we're still taught to pray for them, right?

Also, if my human brother was somehow turned into the vilest scumbag the Universe has ever known, I'm still going to pray for his ***, and I'd still have faith that it could help. Lucifer is our brother, right? Why wouldn't we? I don't know if I like the idea of scripture saying, "Um, that guy is just too bad -- don't waste your time on him" -- that doesn't seem right.
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Trying to apply logic to religion. Lol.
 
Howard said:
Could you expound a little further? I don't want to give a poor answer. Thanks.
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The 7,000 year history, job getting puked up by a whale, talking donkeys, Jehovah being angry and spiteful until God all of a sudden has a change of heart and tells everyone to love each other?

I think the bible is great and inspiring, but I do not think it is historically accurate nor is it completely representative of who God is, at least in my opinion. The New Testament is a lot more applicable and probably more accurate, but there are even some things that don't relate to modern life in there.

If you take the bible at face value, you would have to do a lot of things differently, like tell your wife she needs to shut up in public, not associate with anyone who has ever been divorced, don't eat pork, and a host of other things that supposed "literal believers" of the bible ignore when it comes to preaching and obedience time.

In other words, I believe in the bible, but I am honest with myself as to its utility.
 
b_line said:
The 7,000 year history, job getting puked up by a whale, talking donkeys, Jehovah being angry and spiteful until God all of a sudden has a change of heart and tells everyone to love each other?

I think the bible is great and inspiring, but I do not think it is historically accurate nor is it completely representative of who God is, at least in my opinion. The New Testament is a lot more applicable and probably more accurate, but there are even some things that don't relate to modern life in there.

If you take the bible at face value, you would have to do a lot of things differently, like tell your wife she needs to shut up in public, not associate with anyone who has ever been divorced, don't eat pork, and a host of other things that supposed "literal believers" of the bible ignore when it comes to preaching and obedience time.

In other words, I believe in the bible, but I am honest with myself as to its utility.
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Yes, I do take the Bible literally. I have no reason not to. Is Job being swallowed up more outlandish than Jesus being born of a virgin and then resurrecting? I realize the logic doesn't always make sense, but God is more powerful than humans, His logic does not need to equal ours. It shouldn't either. We don't have perfect logic, He does.

As for all the old laws, you don't need to follow those. They were fulfilled. We just need Jesus now. And let's be honest, is killing His enemies more spiteful than telling those who don't believe that they're going to Hell?
 
Howard said:
Yes, I do take the Bible literally. I have no reason not to. Is Job being swallowed up more outlandish than Jesus being born of a virgin and then resurrecting? I realize the logic doesn't always make sense, but God is more powerful than humans, His logic does not need to equal ours. It shouldn't either. We don't have perfect logic, He does.

As for all the old laws, you don't need to follow those. They were fulfilled. We just need Jesus now. And let's be honest, is killing His enemies more spiteful than telling those who don't believe that they're going to Hell?
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Why do intelligent people become willing to suspend the rules of logic and scientific inquiry whenever this one topic is discussed. It's crazy. Has it ever occured to you that if you had been raised in an Arab family you would have almost certainly become Muslim, or if you were raised in a Budhist family the chances you would have become Budhist are almost 100%. So are you equally okay with the mental gyrations people in those religions go through in order to fully support their religions? Is there any topic other than religion where you would be willing to make similar accomidations to common sense in order to come to the conclusions you feel you are required to?
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
Why do intelligent people become willing to suspend the rules of logic and scientific inquiry whenever this one topic is discussed. It's crazy. Has it ever occured to you that if you had been raised in an Arab family you would have almost certainly become Muslim, or if you were raised in a Budhist family the chances you would have become Budhist are almost 100%. So are you equally okay with the mental gyrations people in those religions go through in order to fully support their religions? Is there any topic other than religion where you would be willing to make similar accomidations to common sense in order to come to the conclusions you feel you are required to?
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Did being raised Christian have something to do with it? Probably, but I spent the majority of my life not believing or living as a Christian. I didn't accept Christ until I went to college and moved away from my family. As much as they tried, they didn't have much to do with my conversion. So Naw, I don't think the way I was raised had anything to do with my beliefs. Heck, I've seen Muslims convert to Christianity even while knowing their families will shun them. I believe those who are going to believe are going to do so regardless of upbringing.

And I get how you think it's crazy. I understand that. Personally I feel the same way about people who don't believe, but that's just me. I'm not going to mock you for your beliefs though.
 
Howard said:
Did being raised Christian have something to do with it? Probably, but I spent the majority of my life not believing or living as a Christian. I didn't accept Christ until I went to college and moved away from my family. As much as they tried, they didn't have much to do with my conversion. So Naw, I don't think the way I was raised had anything to do with my beliefs. Heck, I've seen Muslims convert to Christianity even while knowing their families will shun them. I believe those who are going to believe are going to do so regardless of upbringing.

And I get how you think it's crazy. I understand that. Personally I feel the same way about people who don't believe, but that's just me. I'm not going to mock you for your beliefs though.
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You have a brother who you consult for answers when it comes to this topic, so I think your initial gut instinct about why you are a believer is more correct than your answer that comes later. If you feel I'm mocking you when I say that I don't understand why you are willing to suspend the rules of logic when discussing your religion I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. My experience is that most believers pull the rip cord on these types of discussions because they have been taught by their church that these things don't need to be logical. As a matter of fact, religion teaches them that applying logic to these sorts of things is wrong. Believers simply need to have faith when things don't make sense. From my perspective that's just a convenient way for religious people to bail from arguments they can't win while claiming victory anyway.

Have you ever done research into how the bible was written and compiled? Are you aware that the Council of Nicea not only decided which books would be included, but altered the text of those books to fit their goals of unifying Rome? Did you know that the idea of Jesus as the Son of God originated long after his death? Were you aware that other records from the era survived which not only show that Jesus had mortal parents (just as all humans do) but also that he eventually married Mary Magdalain and they had at least one child? How come, despite all of the evidence that the Bible is not an accurate depiction of Jesus' life (let alone an accurate depiction of all of the other things it purports to be), believers are willing to accept it and ignore any evidence that calls it into question?
 
Yes, I have a brother in law who is more knowledgeable about such things so I consult him. That would be logical. I hardly knew him when I converted though.

I wasn't trying to insinuate you were mocking.

As for the history of the church, I am aware of the disputes with how it all happened. I think you're taking a biased view of what fits your beliefs, but I would do the same. I am aware of what I believe, of how it disputes logic, and I am ok with that. It's my decision to make.

I'm curious though, are you an atheist, agnostic? What do you believe?
 
Howard said:
Yes, I have a brother in law who is more knowledgeable about such things so I consult him. That would be logical. I hardly knew him when I converted though.

I wasn't trying to insinuate you were mocking.

As for the history of the church, I am aware of the disputes with how it all happened. I think you're taking a biased view of what fits your beliefs, but I would do the same. I am aware of what I believe, of how it disputes logic, and I am ok with that. It's my decision to make.

I'm curious though, are you an atheist, agnostic? What do you believe?
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I believe in the concept of God, but I do not have specific knowledge of who or what God is. God may be a father or mother to all of us, or it might be that we are all parts of a cumulative spirit that makes up God, or it could be something else entirely. I am even open to the possibility that there is no God and we simply exist as the result of an amazing chain of events over millenia that resulted in increasingly complex life forms.

I do have a huge problem with the idea that God would ask us to blindly obey, or that we should ever be required to ignore our ability to reason. To me those sorts of strategies appear to be the tools of men who have chosen to utilize (and even fashion) organized religion for their personal power. Sadly that has been all too common throughout history. It remains one of the biggest problems in the world today. More people have been murdered in the name of religion, by far, than for any other reason. Christianity has a lot of blood on its hands, as does Islam, etc.

If you look back over religious history you will see that its primary attraction has been to explain the unexplainable. In tribal times forms of paganism arose in virtually every culture to explain whatever phenomena that people could not understand. Lightning bolts were the result of waring gods, good harvests were the result of satisfied gods, etc. As science began to explain more and more these gods were left in charge of less and less, but to this day there remain important questions which are still unexplainable. Throughout all of this history the ruling class have been well aware of what a powerful tool organized religion is for controlling the masses. In fact, the ruling class of the various European nations and the leaders of the Catholic Church were closely related members of the same families for centuries and centuries. They intermarried back and forth to keep these bonds strong.

There can be no disputing that Constantine played a central role in creating Christianity as we know it today. Was he divinely inspired in this task or did he undertake it for other reasons? I believe there is overwhelming evidence that he and his counselors decided how Jesus, God, etc. would be portrayed, and that they made these decisions specifically to accomplish their personal goals. No matter why they made the decisions that they did, the result has been a very effective strategy and it has played a central role in the ascent of western society. But I believe we owe it to ourselves, as free-thinking individuals, to question what we are told in the bible and elsewhere, and to discard anything that does not stand up to logical inquiry. In fact, I believe that is what a just God (the only sort worth following) would want us to do.
 
The scientist in me, with a little anthropological information, pretty well comes down about like Joe here on a lot of the points.

The religious person in me just knows God is there.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
Wow. Sprinkling around a few facts sure killed that discussion.
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Actually considering where this thread was going I think it just shifted to the Christianity thread.
 
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