I checked. He was 13 and 11 guy as a 20 year old…
"In retrospect, King won the Williams' trade in a landslide."
- Thread starter Jeffrey32
- Start date
I checked. He was 13 and 11 guy as a 20 year old…
In his 3rd season. Would it be a huge stretch for Favors to put up those kind of numbers in almost 30 MPG?
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
deron's win share in NJ last season was 4.1. that's it. even if you adjust it to a full season (5.1), that is the WS of a pretty good role player. now, obviously some of that was due to injuries (he missed 11 games) and the fact that his team mostly sucked. but his 2010-11 WS number if we combine utah and NJ was 7.3. better, but not elite.
declaring the trade a win for NJ makes it sound like deron is playing elite-level basketball, and he's not. they're basing that assessment on the fact that deron re-upped with BKN (which by the way is something he was extremely unlikely to do here in utah), without any regard to the fact that deron definitely has to re-earn his status as a top-5 PG. i certainly believe he's that talented, but the guy hasn't resembled the all-NBA level for a couple of years now.
i also agree that NJ is probably not going to be as good as advertised. gerald wallace and lopez aren't team-changers. williams and johnson can be, so we'll see how they work with that roster.
declaring the trade a win for NJ makes it sound like deron is playing elite-level basketball, and he's not. they're basing that assessment on the fact that deron re-upped with BKN (which by the way is something he was extremely unlikely to do here in utah), without any regard to the fact that deron definitely has to re-earn his status as a top-5 PG. i certainly believe he's that talented, but the guy hasn't resembled the all-NBA level for a couple of years now.
i also agree that NJ is probably not going to be as good as advertised. gerald wallace and lopez aren't team-changers. williams and johnson can be, so we'll see how they work with that roster.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
13.1 PPG and 10.2 RPG (nice rounding) in his 3rd season at 28.8 MPG. I feel very comfortable that Favors could get those numbers this season.
Are Favors, Kanter, and Mo Williams team changers?
My opinion, going in the order you listed:
Yes
Not so much this year
Yes
Favors is ready for a breakout year, Kanter has a ways to go, and Mo Williams (besides being a good player) brings some toughness and attitude that the team needs.
Weezur
Well-Known Member
This is a faulty argument.
We got: Favors, Kanter, Marvin Williams, and GS Pick.
Marvin Williams is who we got for Harris, not Mo Williams. Mo Williams is who we got for Memo and no, there isn't any alternate universe where we get Mo Williams for Harris and Marvin for a trade exception.
Team changers?
Favors- hell yes.
Kanter- not right now
Marvin Williams, can't say, but he's much >>> than Harris.
GS pick- Can't say.
Basically, right now, the Nets traded pick #2 in the 2005 draft + Favors + Kanter + GS pick for pick #3 in the 2005 draft.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
I really think the argument is can you build a Big-3 model in Utah and attract other quality FA's to sign for the minimum.
After you make the moves Brooklyn HAD TO MAKE to have a chance at keeping Deron (by Deron's own admission), the Jazz would be left with Deron and Johnson at the max, a few decent role players (depending on what they gave up to get Johnson or some other MAX player) and few draft picks. I don't see any scenario for Utah to be a contender under that model. Prokhorov can afford to pay extra tax for a couple of years. But damn, that payroll is high: how can you pay MAX deals for 3 guys + add Wallace at $11M and Humphries at $12M? Brooklyn has a 2-yr window to win a championship. After that they either try to dump Wallace and others, or start subsidizing the rest of the league with their tax payments. And that may be ok. New arena, rich owner. Prokhorov may become the basketball equivalent of George Steinbrenner.
After you make the moves Brooklyn HAD TO MAKE to have a chance at keeping Deron (by Deron's own admission), the Jazz would be left with Deron and Johnson at the max, a few decent role players (depending on what they gave up to get Johnson or some other MAX player) and few draft picks. I don't see any scenario for Utah to be a contender under that model. Prokhorov can afford to pay extra tax for a couple of years. But damn, that payroll is high: how can you pay MAX deals for 3 guys + add Wallace at $11M and Humphries at $12M? Brooklyn has a 2-yr window to win a championship. After that they either try to dump Wallace and others, or start subsidizing the rest of the league with their tax payments. And that may be ok. New arena, rich owner. Prokhorov may become the basketball equivalent of George Steinbrenner.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
i agree with everything weezur said in response to borat, but i'll also add that i think borat is asking the wrong questions.
comparing favors/kanter/marvin/GS pick to wallace/lopez doesn't make any sense, as nobody was ever in a position where they were choosing between those two sets of players. even comparing favors/kanter/marvin/GS to DW is only valid if we're naive enough to think that DW was planning to stay in utah past this summer.
since we all pretty much know that wasn't going to happen, then really what we're talking about is this: favors/kanter/1.5 seasons of harris/1-2 seasons of marvin/GS pick vs. 14 extra months of DW and then getting nothing but a cap hold removed when he bolted for brooklyn/orlando/dallas/NY.
the jazz did pretty well to get as much value as they could while they could. favors is a potential star (emphasis on potential), devin played well enough to net us a talented young wing whose talent was never really mined in ATL, kanter is still a "who knows?" and the GS pick could produce a top-ten draft pick. in retrospect, if the jazz had the option to redo the trade or not redo the trade, they would do it 100 times out of 100.
comparing favors/kanter/marvin/GS pick to wallace/lopez doesn't make any sense, as nobody was ever in a position where they were choosing between those two sets of players. even comparing favors/kanter/marvin/GS to DW is only valid if we're naive enough to think that DW was planning to stay in utah past this summer.
since we all pretty much know that wasn't going to happen, then really what we're talking about is this: favors/kanter/1.5 seasons of harris/1-2 seasons of marvin/GS pick vs. 14 extra months of DW and then getting nothing but a cap hold removed when he bolted for brooklyn/orlando/dallas/NY.
the jazz did pretty well to get as much value as they could while they could. favors is a potential star (emphasis on potential), devin played well enough to net us a talented young wing whose talent was never really mined in ATL, kanter is still a "who knows?" and the GS pick could produce a top-ten draft pick. in retrospect, if the jazz had the option to redo the trade or not redo the trade, they would do it 100 times out of 100.
squareinthecircle
Active Member
It was a great trade for Utah. Period.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
MY Point was PG is the LEAST important position to have the MAX guy at. Out of that list, 2 of them won a ring in their prime. One of them, Magic, won a ring as the main guy, the MAX player.
Yes, obviously, a star PG can get you some wins.
BUT to win it all, I think its fair to say it is best to have your MAX guy and best players at other positions than PG.
I am not comparing favors/kanter/marvin/GS pick to wallace/lopez. I am merely pointing out that unlike Deron, who can be a game changer, neither of these scrubs is. Yet we trade a game changer for non game changers, hence losing this trade in a landslide, as the title suggest.
You are making completely baseless assumption that there was no chance Deron would stay in Utah. I know it is convenient to assume that, but the guy chose to stay for a losing team with little history for 30 mil extra that bird's rights offer. That same 30 mil could have been offered by Utah, and he would have stayed as well.
No, Jazz did not get as much value as they could. Look what NO got for Paul. They actually got a young star. Not potential star with emphasis on potential, but actual star. We got scrubs. The "who knows Kanter", the potential star Favors, the mighty GS draft pick, which may not even happen at all, they don't amount to too much. It is AJ and Millsap who are now our best players and lift most of the weight. Used to be Deron, and we still had Millsap and AJ.
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
You mean the guy who played 9 games last year and has missed 1/3 of his career games due to injury and just signed a max deal?
Weezur
Well-Known Member
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
favors is a potential star; marvin is already better than a mere role player and has a lot of time left to improve with a lot of raw ability; it's too early to call the GS pick a scrub OR a game-changer, we don't even know who it's going to be; and kanter has the size and strength to be a beastly NBA big man, he just needs to put it together.
it's not an assumption. he spent all-star weekend telling people he was going and the jazz got wind of it. not to mention a handful of PUBLIC comments that were thinly veiled (or not-at-all veiled) threats that he fully intended to walk.
and if you're following the DW saga this summer, he didn't stay for the extra $ (which, by the way, is not a $30M difference under this CBA... check your facts). he stayed because they went out and got him an all-star backcourt running mate. he has said as much publicly.
a recent 3rd pick, a future 3rd pick, a recent 5th pick which we then parlayed into a recent 2nd pick, and an extra lottery pick to boot. think back to draft day and how much teams were willing to give up for a solitary top 10 pick... we gave up a disgruntled guy who had already quit on his coach and essentially shown a tendency to pack it in for 3, 3, 5/2 and 9. that's an amazing haul even if deron wasn't a mortal lock to bolt SLC the following summer.
Yes, him. The one who can actually make a difference. And his injury this year was a blessing for NO. Next year he is young and healthy with Davis on the team as well. This reminds me how OKC was built. Great young players, took time to win and assembled more great young players via draft. Gordon is such great young player. Favors and Kanter do not appear to be anywhere near that level.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
i'm going to go out on a limb and say that no team that calls eric gordon its best player will ever advance to the second round of the playoffs.
Weezur
Well-Known Member
Anthony Davis will probably be the best player. NOH got lucky with that.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
oh i agree. i'm just saying that anybody who thinks eric gordon is franchise cornerstone material will probably be disappointed. he might turn out to be a good robin if davis becomes a powerful batman, but i have a hard time picturing gordon being the best player on a legit contender.
Eric may be Robin to batman, but Favors and Kanter look like regular folks. My point was that unlike KOC, who jumped the gun and got average players, NO actually got some proven great young talent for their superstar. And yes, NO still lost in that trade, but not in a one way landslide fashion, like King raped KOC.