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Is LeBron the GOAT?

elan_prodigy said:
Its MJ and its not close.

Lebron in closing in on the #2 spot imo.

Cant wait for this new MJ documentary, people need their memory refreshed to the greatness of Jordan and stop being prisoners of the moment.

Lebron has played in a weak conference his entire career - FACT
Lebron builds 'super' teams - FACT
Lebrons stats are inflated due to: small ball, evolution of the 3 ball, the one and done era (plays against kids) and no hand checking - FACT
Lebron is a poor teammate/leader - OPINION
Lebrons longevity and health is questionable due to persistent rumors of his use of PEDs and his name being found on biogenisis list - SPECULATION

MJ is the GOAT.
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MJ played in a weak conference as well - how many EC teams won the title other than The Bulls from 1990 to 2004? Zero. When MJ was out of the league and then when his skills diminished the WC dominated the finals.

So what do you call it when after winning multiple championships you pick up the best player in Europe (Kukoc) and then the best defensive player/rebounder in the NBA (Rodman)? And oh yeah - you got Pippen too - who was arguably the second best player in the NBA in the early/mid 90's. Has LeBron ever played with the second best player in the NBA? The season Jordan took off to play minor league baseball The Bulls won 55 games and were one bailout call away against The Knicks from making the conference finals and most likely going to the NBA Finals. By contrast, how many games would The Cavs win this year without LeBron? Maybe 30? The season Jordan came back he literally shot The Bulls out of the playoffs due to his court rust.

LOL - the hand checking rule and the traveling rules were changed during the Jordan era to make the game easier specifically for HIM! John Stockton (as well as many others) even said this on ESPN Radio two weeks ago.

I'm not sure in what context you mean by poor teammate/leader? Statistically LeBron has about 2,600 more assists than Jordan did in his career and they've played a comparable number of games. I think it's well known that Jordan was a bully to his teammates. When Bill Cartwright was traded to Chicago he threatened to kill Jordan when he try to pull his **** on him during practice. And I myself saw many times Jordan show up his teammates during a game. LeBron seems to be more a positive reinforcement guy, he takes a mentorship role with young players on other teams (I think we've all seen him do this after games).

LeBron (according to him) spends literally one million dollars a year on his body (food, conditioning, therapy). If he was using PED's I imagine that amount would be a lot less. But who knows for sure. Just like who knows for sure why Jordan really left basketball in 1993 and his association with mobsters and other shady individuals and his huge gambling debts and getting fleeced by golf course hustlers and the speculation behind the murder of his father....
 
candrew said:
MJ played in a weak conference as well - how many EC teams won the title other than The Bulls from 1990 to 2004? Zero. When MJ was out of the league and then when his skills diminished the WC dominated the finals.

So what do you call it when after winning multiple championships you pick up the best player in Europe (Kukoc) and then the best defensive player/rebounder in the NBA (Rodman)? And oh yeah - you got Pippen too - who was arguably the second best player in the NBA in the early/mid 90's. Has LeBron ever played with the second best player in the NBA? The season Jordan took off to play minor league baseball The Bulls won 55 games and were one bailout call away against The Knicks from making the conference finals and most likely going to the NBA Finals. By contrast, how many games would The Cavs win this year without LeBron? Maybe 30? The season Jordan came back he literally shot The Bulls out of the playoffs due to his court rust.

LOL - the hand checking rule and the traveling rules were changed during the Jordan era to make the game easier specifically for HIM! John Stockton (as well as many others) even said this on ESPN Radio two weeks ago.

I'm not sure in what context you mean by poor teammate/leader? Statistically LeBron has about 2,600 more assists than Jordan did in his career and they've played a comparable number of games. I think it's well known that Jordan was a bully to his teammates. When Bill Cartwright was traded to Chicago he threatened to kill Jordan when he try to pull his **** on him during practice. And I myself saw many times Jordan show up his teammates during a game. LeBron seems to be more a positive reinforcement guy, he takes a mentorship role with young players on other teams (I think we've all seen him do this after games).

LeBron (according to him) spends literally one million dollars a year on his body (food, conditioning, therapy). If he was using PED's I imagine that amount would be a lot less. But who knows for sure. Just like who knows for sure why Jordan really left basketball in 1993 and his association with mobsters and other shady individuals and his huge gambling debts and getting fleeced by golf course hustlers and the speculation behind the murder of his father....
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* The Bulls dominated the league throughout the 90s, his dominance outlasted many HOFers careers. Its pretty well established that the East throughout the 80s-90s (especially early-mid) was the superior conference. Its also well established that the Eastern conference Lebron has competed in has been trash for 10 years.

* Kukoc was basically a 6th man and Rodman was ancient. Pippen was amazing no arguments there but ask yourself this; would you have heard of Pippen if he was drafted somewhere other than the Bulls? or was he molded by the daily battles against Jordan? Lebron has played with more Allstars than MJ and Pippen was never the 2nd best player in the league EVER. It also speaks to allowing your FO to do its job instead of leveraging your positon, signing 1-2yr contracts to strong arm the FO.

* Jordan left and the Bulls were successful.... This is CULTURE! A culture cultivated by MJ (and Phil Jackson). Its why the Spurs succeeded when Duncan left. Lebrons teams fall apart when he leaves because he doesn't create that winning culture, a culture of sustained excellence.

* You're kidding yourself if you want to compare eras.
MJ: Played against men in the most physical era of basketball
LBJ: Plays against kids, the "one and done era" in a league that has adopted small ball.

* MJ was a bully but got the best out of his teammates. If they couldnt handle it they werent cut out for Finals basketball of that era, they couldnt compete against the Pistons, Celtics of the world. #TrialbyFIRE
LBJ is a passive aggressive premadonna that has driven out an Allstar teammate while significantly effecting the confidence of numerous others, IT, Crowder, Hood, Love this year alone.

* You think PEDs at the extent LBJ is reported to be using is cheap? His name was found on the same list as A-Rod, thats fact. And sure MJ was suspended by the league for gambling... so what?
 
I also hate this new narrative:

"Lebron is a greater all round player, MJ was just a scorer"

MJ was a WINNER!

Media getting on Lebrons dick talking about MJ like he was Iverson. Gtfoh. Only thing Lebron has dominated is the EAST!
 
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Wes Mantooth said:
Yeah, his 14.9, 16.1 and 15.0 rebounds per game (each of which led the entire league) in his three seasons in Chicago reek of old age.
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I never said he was a bum, dude could grab 15 boards tomorrow in this league. He was long in the tooth and past his prime with the bulls.
 
Here are the two things that separate Jordan from Lebron for me.

1) Jordan truly made those around him better. I just don't see that to the same degree with Lebron. Because of the latter's individual greatness, he is able to get teammates good shots at times, and he does demand his teammates play hard but Jordan was sooooo much better at helping his teammates elevate their play in a seamless manner within the offense and brought out the best in them.

2) Jordan never even went past a game six in any of his six Finals wins. He won all six of course. Lebron?

In his first Finals appearance with the Cavs, Lebron got swept by the Spurs. Okay, okay, that squad stunk. But his squad with Wade, Bosh, Allen and Company got murdered in 5 by the Spurs years later. The year prior, that same Heat team took 7 games to beat that Spurs team and really only was able to do so and avoid losing the series in six due one of the most fortuitous bounces in league history perhaps. That same Heat squad, their first year together or not, lost to a Mavs squad which just might be the worst championship team...ever.

So yeah, Jordan had a much better sense for the moment and minimizing bleeding. If any began, he tightened the tourniquet, stopped it, and went for the throat himself. It's why he was 6-0 in Finals games. Lebron did not always have that same killer instinct nor did he have go to clutch ability like Jordan did for much of his career. We've seen some great clutch shots from him this postseason but this was not always the case. For a long time, and still today. Lebron's best move was dribble fast at the basket, lower his dead, and attack the rim to draw the foul.
 
elan_prodigy said:
I never said he was a bum, dude could grab 15 boards tomorrow in this league. He was long in the tooth and past his prime with the bulls.
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You said he was ancient. That implies him being the over the hill. That was not the case and he was not long in the tooth you dullard.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
Are you ****ing braindead? He led the league in rebounding all three years. How ****ing ancient or long in tooth could he have been?
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I get it man. He was a specialist and is one of the best rebounders ever but he wasn't DPOY Rodman. I will mention he played with the 2 best defenders in the league at that time. Great defense = more missed shots = more rebounds.
 
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