Jazz acquire NAW and Juancho Hernangomez for Ingles, Hughes, and two 2nd round picks.

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Have there been any rumors about deals the jazz almost made or deals that fell through? Players the jazz tried to trade for, any of those types of details?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It was the most short-sighted salary move we've ever made. If it had been more anticipated, and the opportunity hadn't arisen quickly when Portland obtained him (and subsequently looked to dump him), we perhaps would have thought this through a little more.

Saves us 12M this year but might cost 20M next year. I mean the chance that either a cap space team or a team with a trade exception big enough to take JC that would want him is low. Bogey is an asset but if you are dumping money you are sucking any on court value out of the trade for cash considerations.

I think DL left but maybe the cap genius is still around? Dumping 3-4M in salary is just so much easier than dumping 9-10M. Its not my money so only reason I care is it stops us from doing basketball stuff. If you told me they will spend and improve regardless then I don't give one eff... but all the evidence points to it prohibiting our moves.

Maybe you can flip him to OKC at the draft but if you could do that then you should have done it this year and avoided the tax. Just such a strange deal. It would have made more sense to try and move Joe for an expiring deal in the 10M range like Sato.

For this reason I think you may see NAW end up getting some PT when Ainge gets off the golf course one day and forces Quin to stick him in the rotation.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It just says that either they are kinda operating like the couple using a credit card for their vacation and are making short term financial moves... or they save the money now and big changes are coming this offseason that allow them to drop below the tax.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Have there been any rumors about deals the jazz almost made or deals that fell through? Players the jazz tried to trade for, any of those types of details?

There was a rumor that the Jazz had a potential trade with Sacramento lined up that then fell apart when Ingles got injured. Not sure what it was though. It was an open secret that the Jazz were interested in Harrison Barnes and Josh Richardson. There might have been some discussion about Marcus Smart, but he can't shoot and his contract extension is a beast.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Maybe NAW gets in and has a good game when someone is hurt and OKC wants his salary for next year to unite him with SGA... but man I don't love the downside of that flier... and no one is really talking about it much (I mean you are of course).

I think Justin Zanik and other guys in the front office really like NAW as a prospect, and I think they brought him in as a potential replacement for Ingles as a 2-way wing who can play on the ball and switch defensively. The Jazz had canvassed the league to see which teams had interest in Ingles. I don't think Portland was the only option as a place to send Ingles' expiring deal. I think they're going to give NAW until next year's deadline to see if he can pick his spots and be more efficient with the Jazz. Same philosophy as with Jordan Clarkson. NAW is decent defensively, he can pass and play in pick-and-roll. The question is whether he can shoot well enough to stick. The Jazz's front office has been saying repeatedly that they want two-way guys who "improve our perimeter defense without compromising spacing." NAW has the potential to fit in that role. For whatever reason, Jared Butler hasn't been able to fit smoothly into the Jazz's system yet, as talented as he is. He's been a bit of a ball stopper and needs to make some adjustments.

It also looks to me like the Jazz overpaid (in years) to sign Rudy Gay, and that's going to hurt our flexibility as much as anything else.

 

[infection]

So I had stated this somewhere else but in hindsight I think the most ideal deadline move would have been the following:

Clarkson
Ingles
First round pick

To Orland for...

Gary Harris
2-3 second round picks

I know we all decided we wouldn't give up a first rounder for anything less than a huge deal, but hear me out.

The deal we just did saved us like $4-5M in salary / $11M with tax this year, but is adding $5M in salary and maybe upwards $15+M with tax next year. The deal above actually saves you a bit more this year (and probably a decent size more with tax), while next year would be an $18M salary swing relative to the deal we just did to get NAW. I'll defer to someone else to calculate what that is with taxes.

Regarding the first rounder, I know we don't want to give that up and hell, maybe we shouldn't. But we need to be more realistic on what's going to happen to that pick. Our second round pick cupboard is gone. It's not there. As HH mentioned earlier, having NAW next year may cost up to $20M. Next year we're older, and our prospects of actually making any improvements on the roster are limited as we won't be able to add salary without massive tax implications. Also as HH mentioned, if we're forced to cut salary for nothing, maybe you get lucky and can trade Clarkson into pure cap space, but probably not. So while we may want to keep that first rounder, it's not out of the realm of reasonable likelihood that we find ourselves in a desperate situation and have to use that pick to offload salary a la Favors last summer. Using that pick in the move above would have allowed you to get ahead on that move and actually get a win-now piece that makes us a better team this year, plus makes a massive amount of financial sense. If the alternative is trading Bojan for no remaining salary, then we are effectively punting on the RG/DM era. This move actually allows you to push more chips onto the table this year while maximizing further flexibility in ways that will be to costly down the road. Plus picking up some second rounders would be nice.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think Justin Zanik and other guys in the front office really like NAW as a prospect, and I think they brought him in as a potential replacement for Ingles as a 2-way wing who can play on the ball and switch defensively. The Jazz had canvassed the league to see which teams had interest in Ingles. I don't think Portland was the only option as a place to send Ingles' expiring deal. I think they're going to give NAW until next year's deadline to see if he can pick his spots and be more efficient with the Jazz. Same philosophy as with Jordan Clarkson. NAW is decent defensively, he can pass and play in pick-and-roll. The question is whether he can shoot well enough to stick. The Jazz's front office has been saying repeatedly that they want two-way guys who "improve our perimeter defense without compromising spacing." NAW has the potential to fit in that role. For whatever reason, Jared Butler hasn't been able to fit smoothly into the Jazz's system yet, as talented as he is. He's been a bit of a ball stopper and needs to make some adjustments.

It also looks to me like the Jazz overpaid (in years) to sign Rudy Gay, and that's going to hurt our flexibility as much as anything else.

JB is already better at the things you mentioned than NAW. The whole idea behind NAW being hot garbage was he was used incorrectly and that he needs to go off ball more.

I don't get the JB stops the ball problem. He stops the ball so he can create for himself and others which he has enormous potential to do at a high level. He's a point guard primarily... its what they are supposed to do.

They may have a plan for NAW but it will be more along the lines of a second/third creator and I think there is a strong possibility they liked NAW okay but had to eat the deal to get the max savings they could for Joe this year.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So I had stated this somewhere else but in hindsight I think the most ideal deadline move would have been the following:

Clarkson
Ingles
First round pick

To Orland for...

Gary Harris
2-3 second round picks

I know we all decided we wouldn't give up a first rounder for anything less than a huge deal, but hear me out.

The deal we just did saved us like $4-5M in salary / $11M with tax this year, but is adding $5M in salary and maybe upwards $15+M with tax next year. The deal above actually saves you a bit more this year (and probably a decent size more with tax), while next year would be an $18M salary swing relative to the deal we just did to get NAW. I'll defer to someone else to calculate what that is with taxes.

Regarding the first rounder, I know we don't want to give that up and hell, maybe we shouldn't. But we need to be more realistic on what's going to happen to that pick. Our second round pick cupboard is gone. It's not there. As HH mentioned earlier, having NAW next year may cost up to $20M. Next year we're older, and our prospects of actually making any improvements on the roster are limited as we won't be able to add salary without massive tax implications. Also as HH mentioned, if we're forced to cut salary for nothing, maybe you get lucky and can trade Clarkson into pure cap space, but probably not. So while we may want to keep that first rounder, it's not out of the realm of reasonable likelihood that we find ourselves in a desperate situation and have to use that pick to offload salary a la Favors last summer. Using that pick in the move above would have allowed you to get ahead on that move and actually get a win-now piece that makes us a better team this year, plus makes a massive amount of financial sense. If the alternative is trading Bojan for no remaining salary, then we are effectively punting on the RG/DM era. This move actually allows you to push more chips onto the table this year while maximizing further flexibility in ways that will be to costly down the road. Plus picking up some second rounders would be nice.

I would have probably rather just done an expiring for an expiring. I think JC can reclaim some value... but it will be hard to offload him in the offseason for little or no returning salary.

I just think that both NO and Portland didn't want NAW because of how they both rushed each other through the trade. Maybe we could have kept our seconds (they weren't good seconds but you can save 3-4M by taking a guy in the 50s and giving him a roster spot)... or maybe we should have received a second. Portland not wanting him when they have infinity development time right now and would love to lose more is telling.

Maybe they know they have a home for JC in the offseason so NAW offers some savings and may help fill part of that bench role. Its just such a weird deal.

If this year doesn't end in a Western Conference finals run I think Bogey or Mike or both will be moved and cost savings will be built into the deal. Just such a weird deal to me, but maybe he gets in the rotation after the AS break.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

JB is already better at the things you mentioned than NAW. The whole idea behind NAW being hot garbage was he was used incorrectly and that he needs to go off ball more.

I don't get the JB stops the ball problem. He stops the ball so he can create for himself and others which he has enormous potential to do at a high level. He's a point guard primarily... its what they are supposed to do.

They may have a plan for NAW but it will be more along the lines of a second/third creator and I think there is a strong possibility they liked NAW okay but had to eat the deal to get the max savings they could for Joe this year.

The rumor over the summer was that the Jazz were going to move Ingles in a deal that brought back Moses Moody, who is another 'big guard' who can play on or off the ball. I think NAW is supposed to be in the same vein. I don't think he's hot garbage, but he wasn't ready for the lead-guard role that the Pels dropped on him this season. He can score well enough in certain situations, but isn't great shooting off the dribble or when his feet aren't set.

For whatever reason, Quin hasn't given minutes to Jared Butler. If I were Butler, I'd be pissed that this undrafted guy who can't shoot is ahead of me in the rotation. If the burning need for perimeter defense cools down due to guys like House, Paschall and Mitchell stepping up, then Maybe Quin will re-evaluate.

 

[Jingled]

Have there been any rumors about deals the jazz almost made or deals that fell through? Players the jazz tried to trade for, any of those types of details?

Not yet but it's coming...Ainge is famous for putting big names out there that he almost traded for. While he was with Boston, he "almost" traded for AD, Jimmy Butler, Harden, CP3, Kawhi, and Paul George, just to name a few.

 

[homeytennis]

One of the NBA media types called the Jazz trade "really underwhelming." It gives the Jazz two former mid first round picks as prospects. They also could be used as chips in trades next year if the occasion calls for it.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I would have probably rather just done an expiring for an expiring. I think JC can reclaim some value... but it will be hard to offload him in the offseason for little or no returning salary.

I just think that both NO and Portland didn't want NAW because of how they both rushed each other through the trade. Maybe we could have kept our seconds (they weren't good seconds but you can save 3-4M by taking a guy in the 50s and giving him a roster spot)... or maybe we should have received a second. Portland not wanting him when they have infinity development time right now and would love to lose more is telling.

Maybe they know they have a home for JC in the offseason so NAW offers some savings and may help fill part of that bench role. Its just such a weird deal.

If this year doesn't end in a Western Conference finals run I think Bogey or Mike or both will be moved and cost savings will be built into the deal. Just such a weird deal to me, but maybe he gets in the rotation after the AS break.

I think both the GMs of the Pels and the Blazers are trying to save their jobs, and they're making moves that make their bosses happy this season. The Pels' GM traded for CJ McCollum to come in and have an immediate impact scoring the ball so they can make a run at the play-in tournament. Nevermind the fact that CJ is 30 years-old, makes $30 million, isn't a true point guard, and combines with Devonte Graham to form the worst defensive backcourt in the league. This is also the same GM that let Lonzo Ball go in a sign-and-trade that brought back Graham, and he replaced Stan VanGundy with Willie Green.

The Blazers just basically dumped Covington and Norm Powell, two guys they made significant trades to acquire. Portland was quick to let Gary Trent Jr. go in order to get Dame some immediate help, and GTJ has been playing well for Toronto. I guess the hope is that NAW can complete his jedi training with the Jazz and become a good player. The Blazers are also making a bet on Keon Johnson, who was the headliner in their trade with the Clippers, so in theory, Simons, Hart and Johnson fill up their young backcourt.

I could see the Jazz moving Bogdanovic before the final year of his deal because his value is likely to decline. They learned this lesson with Joe Ingles.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

One of the NBA media types called the Jazz trade "really underwhelming." It gives the Jazz two former mid first round picks as prospects. They also could be used as chips in trades next year if the occasion calls for it.

It isn't sexy to say that the Jazz signed Danuel House instead of trading for Josh Richardson, but they may turn out to have nearly the same impact for the Jazz. BTW, this is now the 4th year in a row that Josh Richardson has been traded. Normally there's something wrong with a guy who can't seem to stick anywhere. A 6'6", 2-way guard should have a lot of value in the league.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think Justin Zanik and other guys in the front office really like NAW as a prospect, and I think they brought him in as a potential replacement for Ingles as a 2-way wing who can play on the ball and switch defensively. The Jazz had canvassed the league to see which teams had interest in Ingles. I don't think Portland was the only option as a place to send Ingles' expiring deal. I think they're going to give NAW until next year's deadline to see if he can pick his spots and be more efficient with the Jazz. Same philosophy as with Jordan Clarkson. NAW is decent defensively, he can pass and play in pick-and-roll. The question is whether he can shoot well enough to stick. The Jazz's front office has been saying repeatedly that they want two-way guys who "improve our perimeter defense without compromising spacing." NAW has the potential to fit in that role. For whatever reason, Jared Butler hasn't been able to fit smoothly into the Jazz's system yet, as talented as he is. He's been a bit of a ball stopper and needs to make some adjustments.

It also looks to me like the Jazz overpaid (in years) to sign Rudy Gay, and that's going to hurt our flexibility as much as anything else.

I'll bet we could move Gay into someone's trade exception or space fairly easily... assuming he is somewhat healthy rest of the way. Mothballing NAW kinda means his trade value declines... might be a rat team like Orlando that would take him for nothing though.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I don't get the JB stops the ball problem. He stops the ball so he can create for himself and others which he has enormous potential to do at a high level. He's a point guard primarily... its what they are supposed to do.

Butler isn't good enough to dominate the ball the way Mike Conley and Donovan do. He needs to be a third guard, like George Hill, and keep the ball moving.

 

[Agent#00]

I thought were gonna trade NAW so now were stuck with NAW. too many guards now

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Butler isn't good enough to dominate the ball the way Mike Conley and Donovan do. He needs to be a third guard, like George Hill, and keep the ball moving.

Neither are JC or Trent and sure as hell NAW ain't it. JB doesn't dominate the ball. He dribbles and creates... outside of Donovan he might be the best player we have at getting separation... hasn't quite figured out how to capitalize on it but we've seen how far Udoka came with a little steady playing time.

Also, we are asking him to do one of the hardest things a player can do.... toggle between making plays and moving the ball in an NBA offense and we aren't gonna give you any time to figure it out. He's done well creating... give him some minutes to marinate... if not for the medical red flags he would have been taken in the

NAW is an okayish prospect but JB is likely better at all the things you want from NAW... you don't get any bonus points for extra wingspan or draft status. As of right now the JB mystery box is better/more promising than what we've seen out of NAW.

Put it this way... when people list all the things NAW needs to work on write that **** down... then compare it to the list of things JB needs to work on. Realize that JB is a rookie and doing this for the first time and tell me who has a better chance at success.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Neither are JC or Trent and sure as hell NAW ain't it. JB doesn't dominate the ball. He dribbles and creates... outside of Donovan he might be the best player we have at getting separation... hasn't quite figured out how to capitalize on it but we've seen how far Udoka came with a little steady playing time.

Also, we are asking him to do one of the hardest things a player can do.... toggle between making plays and moving the ball in an NBA offense and we aren't gonna give you any time to figure it out. He's done well creating... give him some minutes to marinate... if not for the medical red flags he would have been taken in the

NAW is an okayish prospect but JB is likely better at all the things you want from NAW... you don't get any bonus points for extra wingspan or draft status. As of right now the JB mystery box is better/more promising than what we've seen out of NAW.

Put it this way... when people list all the things NAW needs to work on write that **** down... then compare it to the list of things JB needs to work on. Realize that JB is a rookie and doing this for the first time and tell me who has a better chance at success.

Time will tell, but NAW may be the better player in pick-and-roll, which is what will bring a twinkle to Quin's eye. Also, the size and wingspan likely make him a more switchable defender. No doubt that JB is the better shooter and pure passer.

For whatever reason, Quin has had Forrest ahead of Butler in the rotation all season. I'm not sure what's going to make that change this year.

 

[homeytennis]

Not to rain on the JB parade but he has played some stinky games with the Stars where the Stars were blown out. Was he too good to be playing in the minors or was it something else? I think that is part of the reason Forrest is ahead of him in the rotation. There was also the NBA game where he and Trent had 15 TOs between them. Quin might have made a mental note to file him with DedEx and Oni.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Not to rain on the JB parade but he has played some stinky games with the Stars where the Stars were blown out. Was he too good to be playing in the minors or was it something else? I think that is part of the reason Forrest is ahead of him in the rotation. There was also the NBA game where he and Trent had 15 TOs between them. Quin might have made a mental note to file him with DedEx and Oni.

Quin didn't even check out the box score.