Jazz trade Fonteccio to Pistons for 2024 2nd

[TheGoldStandard]

The "moved around quite a bit for some reason" can really be a red flag...
If Ochai takes Fonteccio's place as a starter the Jazz's starting five is losing in size and making defensive switches harder and strong PF/C types will be hard to defend in the paint. If Knox proves to be even some value the deal isn't all that bad (if he is even staying... have to see what still happens before the deadline - probably a lot). Who knows - maybe Procida will be a surprise asset (looks more athletic than Fonteccio tbh, but highlight videos are only that...).

I watch a lot of NBA basketball, but Detroit is one of the teams I basically have not watched unless they play the Jazz. Supposedly Knox has been playing decent of late. Detroit is stilm giving up on him like every other team he has played for to date.

I have watched him play for his other teams, and there is good reason he has been moved so much. Lazy/low bbiq defender. Poor closeout defender on 3s (similar to Collins). Can hit open 3s, has good frame and is athletic.
Not a great dribbler to the left. Often has had bad body language.

He is one of those guys that has all the physical tools but never puts it together. I don't thinm Thibs is a good player development coach, and that likely hurt Knox early on. Not optimistic Hardy and his staff can do when so many other teams have been unable to do. Maybe he will surprise us all.

I really like how Simone has played this year. Sad that the reward for it is getting shipped to the armpit of Michigan.

 

[hgb]

Didn't realize Procida had that size, though. Hopefully he can turn into something.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Gabriele Procida. This kid definitely has potential as a solid 6’8” Wing with a 35” vertical and notable defensive prowess.

Also can't shoot at all.

He's probably not an NBA player.

I never knew we had this many people here who bought Kevin Knox stock and never sold it. Also never knew we had this many people who love edited highlight videos from inferior European leagues where Collin Sexton would average 45ppg.

 

[hgb]

Also can't shoot at all.

How would you know at this point? Until this season, he's had better percentages than Simone had at the same age.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

How would you know at this point?

He's shooting 27% from the perimeter in the Euroleague (and on small volume to boot), which is what you shoud be looking at.

The Italian league (where he shot a bit better early on) is an utter joke compared to the NBA and way worse than the Euroleague.

 

[HermanG]

Also can't shoot at all.

He's probably not an NBA player.

I never knew we had this many people here who bought Kevin Knox stock and never sold it. Also never knew we had this many people who love edited highlight videos from inferior European leagues where Collin Sexton would average 45ppg.

Lets take a trip back memory lane about what you said about Simone who you are now crying after.

Btw these are collected from 5 month timeframe last season simply by typing "Fontecchio" into the search and defining they are posted by you. I left out quite a lot so this wouldnt be too long:

The (huge) difference is that Simone doesn't seem to have any of the intangibles that Ingles possessed from the second he first stepped foot on an NBA floor. Joe was a much better player when he came into the league, defensive woes and all. Fontecchio is an energy guy with awkward tweener size who can shoot a bit. He would be playing bigger minutes if he deserved them.

I can't see him lasting in the NBA.

Simone has little margin for error, though. He's 6'8'' and plays a critical position defensively (small forward). So far he hasn't been able to stay with NBA 3's, and obviously he's too small to guard bigs. That leads me to believe he'll always be a bench specialist in the NBA. Maybe playing 15 to 20 minutes tops.

As for the other guys... I'm not sure Fontecchio is a rotation player in the NBA. He'll be 27 this season, so he pretty much is who he is at this point. Not getting any younger or quicker. To me he's a tweener who's too slow to guard 3's and lacks size and athleticism to guard 4's. He's certainly no foundational piece.

Simone will be 27 in a few days. He is what he is. I think he's headed back to Europe once his deal is up. He can probably make more money there and it doesn't make sense for him to spend his basketball prime playing 9mpg in the NBA.

Fontecchio isn't young, at 27 he's older than Markkanen. Realistically, he has 4 or 5 NBA years left, and that's if things go extremely well for him. He might also be out of the league after his current deal. Do we need to "evaluate" him?

We have zero spacing right now, with pathetic non-shooters like Dunn, THT, Kessler, Fontecchio and Toscano-Anderson all playing actual rotation minutes.

The zero spacing + pathetic non-shooter comment was my favourite. That was from Match 7th 2023, so not an early season overreaction but after ASG.

 

[HermanG]

Also two of those messages were sandwiched around this gem from @Handlogten's Heros

He can shoot a bit? Sir he's a ****ing flame thrower. 40% on threes and taking a ton. It is incredibly hard for guys to be effective coming off the bench in spot minutes and shoot from the perimeter like he is.

He's more Max Strus than Joe Ingles. He has some Bogey similarities. Its way to early to judge him.

He's made a few good defensive plays and seems to make solid rotations. He also is surprisingly good on pump fake straight line drives. Tried to mash on some guys and missed a couple early (some missed fouls in there imo). Beasley fills the high volume three point shooter role right now. Moving Vando or KO would open up some minutes for Simone... for instance if Vando was moved and Kessler became the starter... I could see Simone being a decent option to slide into a 20 minute a night starter role.

Like HH actually perfectly desribed what Simone is and what he could be, and also what he turned out to be this year. But even when spoonfed with a near perfect analysis, TU did his thang.

 

[hgb]

He's shooting 27% from the perimeter in the Euroleague (and on small volume to boot), which is what you shoud be looking at.

The Italian league (where he shot a bit better early on) is an utter joke compared to the NBA and way worse than the Euroleague.

You're also looking at a pretty small sample size. He might never amount to anything, but your excellent analysis of Simone from last season that Herman just quoted could also be an indication that maybe jumping to conclusions about players isn't always a great idea.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

That was from Match 7th 2023

LOL. Nice exhumation job.

Let's not pretend like Simone didn't straight up suck most of last season. And I've given him props many times for taking his game to another level lately. But I guess hindsight is 20/20... I have no problem with anything I wrote about him last year. He was an end-of-bench scrub, now he's a productive starter. It happens. Would never count on it though.

Happy for all the people who were able to see that an older guy playing 9mpg and shooting a bad percentage from the perimeter (33%) was really a hidden treasure, though! That's elite armchair GM'ing. You should run the Jazz.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

You're also looking at a pretty small sample size. He might never amount to anything, but your excellent analysis of Simone from last season that Herman just quoted could also be an indication that maybe jumping to conclusions about players isn't always a great idea.

Yeah, let's stick to the facts.

Here are the acts: Procida is a guy who may or may not make it to the League some day. He's certainly no high level prospect and will do nothing for us in the short term. He's a ghost of a player.

Kevin Knox is a bust who has zero on-court value.

Taylor Hendricks has not been able to beat out any of the Jazz rotation players for minutes. He may still not be ready to play.

It's OK to be neutral on any of these guys. All I'm asking is that people won't start huffing copium and telling me these moves won't make us weaker. They do.

 

[HermanG]

LOL. Nice exhumation job.

Let's not pretend like Simone didn't straight up suck most of last season. And I've given him props many times for taking his game to another level lately. But I guess hindsight is 20/20... I have no problem with anything I wrote about him last year. He was an end-of-bench scrub, now he's a productive starter. It happens. Would never count on it though.

Happy for all the people who were able to see that an older guy playing 9mpg and shooting a bad percentage from the perimeter (33%) was really a hidden treasure, though! That's elite armchair GM'ing. You should run the Jazz.

You made FUTURE declarations in most of those statements. You told us what he was going to be, not what he was.

Feel free to not have regrets, but also understand that your ability to see the ceilings for players is not good based on history.

One example from this year. We had this conversation on December 4th:

@Tremendous Upside and @jom2003 if you had to make a call, would you say Keyonte George is going to be a good 3PT shooter in the NBA or not?

You are here painting a negative picture, and I want to see what you truely believe. Its easy to hide behind stats and say "this is what it currently is" (a child can do this), but make a proper analysis and give me your best arguments.

Forget "good" for now – Keyonte's next goal is to become an average shooter. If he's going to play the point, he has to be someone who can't be ignored on the perimeter and who'll be good enough of a finisher that he'll collapse the defense when he drives into the paint. That's just a prerequisite for doing his main job.

However... we simply don't have that many examples of guys who couldn't shoot in college but became dependable in the NBA. Everything is harder in the League. As I said, I'm not giving up on the kid... that would be stupid. But some things are more probable than others.

I can't see any reason to expect that he'll become a GOOD shooter. That may happen, but it's unlikely.

You sure? I mean, analyze his form, mechanics, how he sets his feet, balance, release quickness, average margin of error on misses, shot quality and decission making. You might find plenty of reasons for optimism.

I see you just decided to stick to stats. I kinda expected more from you, as you often analyze stuff beyond the box score.

Keyonte stats up until Dec 4th (so prior to that convo):



Keyonte stats after Dec 4th (after the convo). Notice a major bump in ALL percentages along with larger sample size.

 

[hgb]

It's OK to be neutral on any of these guys.

Aha, so saying "hopefully he can turn into something" is smoking copium, while saying "probably not an NBA player" is neutral?

 

[MT Steve]

You made FUTURE declarations in most of those statements. You told us what he was going to be, not what he was.

Feel free to not have regrets, but also understand that your ability to see the ceilings for players is not good based on history.

One example from this year. We had this conversation on December 4th:




Keyonte stats up until Dec 4th (so prior to that convo):

View attachment 15960

Keyonte stats after Dec 4th (after the convo). Notice a major bump in ALL percentages along with larger sample size.

View attachment 15959

It should not have been difficult to be optimistic about Keyonte even before this improvement.

It is RARE for rookies to be efficient scorers. Guess who was a more efficient scorer: Rookie Kevin Durant, or (so far) Rookie Keyonte George.

The answer might surprise you!

 

[HermanG]

It should not have been difficult to be optimistic about Keyonte even before this improvement.

It is RARE for rookies to be efficient scorers. Guess who was a more efficient scorer: Rookie Kevin Durant, or (so far) Rookie Keyonte George.

The answer might surprise you!

I would have guessed Durant in a vacuum, but the way you put it its probably George.

Yeah I made my call on Keyonte based on what I see with my eyes, and how that didnt match with the stats. Turns out I'm already kinda redeemed for making that call, but hopefully even more so in the future.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Just look at the deal this way.

Simone will have to get paid in the summer and if his agent valuation of his extension exceeds our own evaluation and there is reason to believe that there will be another team that's willing to give him the money that his party desired, there's nothing wrong with us deciding to cash in now.

Shooters are the most sought after assets in the league. But for this reason the market is extremely inflated which produced some of the worst contracts we've ever seen. Davis Bertans, Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson, etc.

Maybe we dodged a bullet or maybe we just lowballed a great player. Only time will tell.

Again, highly doubt this is about paying him.

Jazz wanted action on draft day and they got it.

 

[MT Steve]

I would have guessed Durant in a vacuum, but the way you put it its probably George.

Yeah I made my call on Keyonte based on what I see with my eyes, and how that didnt match with the stats. Turns out I'm already kinda redeemed for making that call, but hopefully even more so in the future.

Yeah, it's George.

And if you want to make the comparison with other players who had similar pts per 36 output, the other two of the Suns Big 3 have got you covered there. Rookie Keyonte is a more efficient scorer than Rookie Devin Booker and Rookie Bradley Beal were, while scoring roughly 1 pt more per 36 than Beal and 1 pt less per 36 than rookie Booker.

Bottom line: A rookie being an inefficient scorer is expected, even amongst those who eventually develop into stars.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It should not have been difficult to be optimistic about Keyonte even before this improvement.

It is RARE for rookies to be efficient scorers. Guess who was a more efficient scorer: Rookie Kevin Durant, or (so far) Rookie Keyonte George.

The answer might surprise you!

Adjust for era

 

[fishonjazz]

Lets take a trip back memory lane about what you said about Simone who you are now crying after.

Btw these are collected from 5 month timeframe last season simply by typing "Fontecchio" into the search and defining they are posted by you. I left out quite a lot so this wouldnt be too long:







The zero spacing + pathetic non-shooter comment was my favourite. That was from Match 7th 2023, so not an early season overreaction but after ASG.

That's some great stuff there

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[HermanG]

Again, highly doubt this is about paying him.

Jazz wanted action on draft day and they got it.

I woke up with a gut feeling that once we are able to officially file in the trade, there is another trade lined up where the pick gets rerouted.

Getting 2nd rounders is not DA MO, and there has been too much smoke around us to stop here. I think we either ship it with KO/JC to get the young guy we want (Springer? Grimes?), or then there is another deal where we are the buyer.

 

[MT Steve]

Adjust for era

Looking up a sample of rookie guards from the past 6 or so years whose efficiency dramatically improved after their rookie seasons:

Rookie De'Aaron Fox was insanely less efficient as a rookie than Keyonte, and scored much less per 36 as well.
Rookie Trae Young's efficiency is identical to rookie Keyonte's (albeit on much higher volume)
Rookie Anthony Edwards' efficiency was a lot worse (similar to Trae, higher volume).
Rookie LaMelo Ball's is identical.
Rookie SGA's efficiency was very meh (better than Keyonte's for sure, on lower volume), but my God has it exploded upwards since then.

None of this is meant to compare Keyonte to these players. More to underscore the point that rookies, even ones that develop into great players, rarely have good efficiency. It's certainly not a reason to be a doomer about their future.