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Kris Dunn

Off topic, it’s gonna be funny as hell in the playoffs when we’re getting torched defensively and Quin refuses to go small ball with Gay at the 5.
Unfortunately I predict you are right on that front.

Funny thing is, even with Gobert on the court, the teams' total size would still be small ball since the starting backcourt are 6'1", 6'1" and 6'4". Whatever Royce brings on perimeter defense as an undersized 4 (or 3), he is limited on offense, and inside D as opponents get any shot they want. His per is 12.12, which is better than last year at 9.88, but still not good. and can only hit outside shots when he is wide open as he is small and doesn't have a lot of lift on his shot. Teams cheat off of him because they can largely recover, which makes Conley and Mitchell's job that much harder.

Gobert gets exploited because he has to overcommit inside to help as there is a lack of defensive discipline. I'd love to see Gay get some of Royce's minutes. This is the main reason I never wanted Conley. Not that he isn't good, but he is a poor fit with Mitchell, and we are seeing how easy teams our shooting over the Jazz even when players stay in front of their man. If Brantley could have ever put it together on offense he could have been a great pickup, but unfortunately just didn't have it.

We are harping on Ingles for looking old, and his PER has dropped off to be similar to what Royce has upped to this year, but still above Royce from last year (Ingles was 15.92 last year). Not to focus on PER, but keep in mind the league average is 15.
 
This makes no bloody sense at all?? Why not just develop Forrest who is basically the same freaking player and only gets 6-8 min a game at a fraction of the cost, friggen idiots!!!
 
Off topic, it’s gonna be funny as hell in the playoffs when we’re getting torched defensively and Quin refuses to go small ball with Gay at the 5.

Playing Gay at the 5 isn’t going to help the other 4 guys stay in front of their man. The problem the Jazz have had is they have like 1 guy on the roster that can defend against guys that can shoot, drive, and dish. We’ve been exposed against teams that can play 5 guys at a time that can do that. The Jazz have been too damn small, old, and slow in too many spots to defend it and they didn’t address it with wing defense.


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Instead of discussing fringe type nba players that only does one thing well and quite frankly that doesn’t get you minutes at the nba level. If it did , Forrest would get a lot more run, and frankly IMO has more upside. Jazzfanz and their one track mind is cringe worthy
 
Playing Gay at the 5 isn’t going to help the other 4 guys stay in front of their man. The problem the Jazz have had is they have like 1 guy on the roster that can defend against guys that can shoot, drive, and dish. We’ve been exposed against teams that can play 5 guys at a time that can do that. The Jazz have been too damn small, old, and slow in too many spots to defend it and they didn’t address it with wing defense.


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Well that’s predominantly on Mitchell. Conley is older and he was never a special defender. He’s small. Bogey doesn’t have the lateral quickness to be great. Mitchell has the athleticism to be an elite defender. It was his forté in college. I don’t think he’ll ever be one though. Not here anyway. I don’t think he’s challenged enough here. There’s no elite player to demand it from him. Or coach who has the balls to demand it. He’s somewhat coddled. And the whole he expends so much energy on offense is nonsense if anyone goes that route. We have Conley, Bogey, Clarkson. This isn’t three years ago…there’s no reason he can’t up his effort on that end. We’ve had enough elite two way players in this league to prove that: Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Paul. My gut though is we’ll never see that here from him.
 
Well that’s predominantly on Mitchell. Conley is older and he was never a special defender. He’s small. Bogey doesn’t have the lateral quickness to be great. Mitchell has the athleticism to be an elite defender. It was his forté in college. I don’t think he’ll ever be one though. Not here anyway. I don’t think he’s challenged enough here. There’s no elite player to demand it from him. Or coach who has the balls to demand it. He’s somewhat coddled. And the whole he expends so much energy on offense is nonsense if anyone goes that route. We have Conley, Bogey, Clarkson. This isn’t three years ago…there’s no reason he can’t up his effort on that end. We’ve had enough elite two way players in this league to prove that: Lebron, Giannis, Durant, Paul. My gut though is we’ll never see that here from him.

I think Mitchell has the athleticism to be an elite defender at the point. I think he could be a very capable defender at the wing, but he lacks the size to be elite. I’m not sure why he appears to be reluctant to play the point. Conley at the point just magnifies the problems defensively at the wing. I’m not sure why Conley has the label as a good defender still- it must be reputation from many many years ago that it is still following him around.


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The whole point of a small ball 5 switchable defense is that you can matchup well in switches. That strategy gets completely thrown out the window when 1-4 can’t matchup with their man to begin with. Subbing out your only good defensive player is not the solution to 5 out lineups when 1-4 can’t defend.
 
Imagine the benefit of having Donovan look at someone like Dunn. If he could pick up even a small amount from him, it puts him into all-NBA territory. 12 minutes of rough-stuff Dunn would really push other guys. He'd be like the anti-Jordan Clarkson, but in a good way. It's time to waive Oni.
 
He's everything we want.
He's everything we need.
He's everything on defense that we wish we could be.
He does all the right things at exactly the right time.
But he means nothing to us and I don't know why.

We're waiting for someone to put us together.
We're waiting for someone to complement sex-machine foreplay.
There's always another player to discover.
There's always someone more we wish they'd sign.

He's everything we want.
He's everything we need.
He's everything on defense that we wish we could be.
He does all the right things at exactly the right time.
But he means nothing to us and I don't know why.

But we'll just sit tight and watch it flatline.
It's Oni's waiving that we've been asking for.
They'll say "we'll be just fine," and that we don't have the time.
It's Oni's waiving that we're waiting for.

 
We’ll be meeting one, or both, of Chris Paul or Stephen Curry in the playoffs and it will be an unmitigated disaster. We know this right now. But when we know it in the future, we’ll pretend it’s only something that can be known and appreciated in hindsight.

I’m going on a hunger strike.
 
I'll just post in this thread rather than spamming the others. There are those who are believing he must be cooked because nobody has picked him up yet. He's had injuries the past couple years, but when he came back from injury at the end of last season, his lateral quickness and spunk looked fine.



(above video is to just watch him move physically, these aren't typical highlights by any stretch of the imagination)

One of our big issues with any guard play is that if someone is moving fast, such as in transition or if they've inbounded the ball quickly, they can usually run right to the rack. Another issue is screening. We don't really have the physical capability to go over on screens. A lot of our guys get completely mitigated by screens. Royce is a bigger/thicker guy and his body isn't cut out for slipping over the screen. Perhaps Conley might be the best but he may not have as much quickness laterally over the screen and being lighter overall makes it harder for him to go through the screen, so we can certainly give up open threes if the other team wants them (just like we can give up rebounds in the clutch when the other team wants them). Chris Paul getting inside the key is going to kill us. The only mitigation we may have on this is Rudy Gay being able to cover for Gobert when he goes out to challenge. We did disrupt the lob pretty well when we played Atlanta but I'd imagine Chris Paul would beat that. If Paul shoots over Rudy, that's problematic as well, so it's not simply allowing Rudy to challenge. It would be nice if you had an option for a body you could throw on him that makes him really work if he wants to get to those spots, if not be able to reduce those shots all together. The specific defensive need we have will get exploited and we'll be caught thinking our counter is just more of something else to compensate for it. Unless we're throwing it in the ocean, this will be the weakness in the Death Star that a few rebels just need to shoot at to blow up the entire operation. Oh, but that Death Star cafeteria food is sooooo good. Why worry about some little small weakness where an unlikely hit takes the whole thing down when there's shrimp scampi on the menu?

We need to sign Dunn yesterday. He needs the Forrest minutes. Give him 12 mpg this season and then have him up your sleeve for the playoffs. Forrest isn't even eligible for the playoffs on a two-way. We're talking about ways we can land certain guys who play marginally better defense. Make the Oni-for-Dunn swap and we'll set this league on fire. I'll give it the infection championship guaranteed seal on this one. I'll back this up with a money-back guarantee that I will give back twice as much money as I was paid for this opinion in the event that any party is unsatisfied with the ultimate results of the season.
 
I'll just post in this thread rather than spamming the others. There are those who are believing he must be cooked because nobody has picked him up yet. He's had injuries the past couple years, but when he came back from injury at the end of last season, his lateral quickness and spunk looked fine.



(above video is to just watch him move physically, these aren't typical highlights by any stretch of the imagination)

One of our big issues with any guard play is that if someone is moving fast, such as in transition or if they've inbounded the ball quickly, they can usually run right to the rack. Another issue is screening. We don't really have the physical capability to go over on screens. A lot of our guys get completely mitigated by screens. Royce is a bigger/thicker guy and his body isn't cut out for slipping over the screen. Perhaps Conley might be the best but he may not have as much quickness laterally over the screen and being lighter overall makes it harder for him to go through the screen, so we can certainly give up open threes if the other team wants them (just like we can give up rebounds in the clutch when the other team wants them). Chris Paul getting inside the key is going to kill us. The only mitigation we may have on this is Rudy Gay being able to cover for Gobert when he goes out to challenge. We did disrupt the lob pretty well when we played Atlanta but I'd imagine Chris Paul would beat that. If Paul shoots over Rudy, that's problematic as well, so it's not simply allowing Rudy to challenge. It would be nice if you had an option for a body you could throw on him that makes him really work if he wants to get to those spots, if not be able to reduce those shots all together. The specific defensive need we have will get exploited and we'll be caught thinking our counter is just more of something else to compensate for it. Unless we're throwing it in the ocean, this will be the weakness in the Death Star that a few rebels just need to shoot at to blow up the entire operation. Oh, but that Death Star cafeteria food is sooooo good. Why worry about some little small weakness where an unlikely hit takes the whole thing down when there's shrimp scampi on the menu?

We need to sign Dunn yesterday. He needs the Forrest minutes. Give him 12 mpg this season and then have him up your sleeve for the playoffs. Forrest isn't even eligible for the playoffs on a two-way. We're talking about ways we can land certain guys who play marginally better defense. Make the Oni-for-Dunn swap and we'll set this league on fire. I'll give it the infection championship guaranteed seal on this one. I'll back this up with a money-back guarantee that I will give back twice as much money as I was paid for this opinion in the event that any party is unsatisfied with the ultimate results of the season.

He isnt cooked, he just isnt good and doesnt fit what Utah does at all. Forrest is better for what Utah wants.
 
He isnt cooked, he just isnt good and doesnt fit what Utah does at all. Forrest is better for what Utah wants.
You're going to have to elaborate on that. What does Utah want that Forrest is doing? Forrest is coming in and is able to handle the ball and give relief minutes to Conley and not mess things up too much. I think you'll find any of the shortcomings of Dunn are also going to apply to Forrest.
 
There's no reason to sign a player who at best is marginally better than Forrest and interrupt Forrest's development as a smart steady backup PG.

Forrest has been very good lately. He doesnt do anything flashy, but he always makes the right pass and is good enough to put pressure on the rim while having that aforementioned ability. He's got the ability to make others around him better despite not being all that great himself.

Dunn doesnt have that. I will give you he's a more impactful man defender, certainly more aggressive, but Forrest fits the offense much better. The reality is we arent putting Dunn into a playoff game because he's going to entirely **** the offensive flow up. He's a bad bad bad offensive player on all fronts.
 
And opponents have a defensive rating of 97 when Forrest is on the court btw. If you look at the lineup data, all the non-garbage time lineups he is in perform excellent.

It's the garbage time lineups he is in that struggle.

(all small sample size of course)
 
There's no reason to sign a player who at best is marginally better than Forrest and interrupt Forrest's development as a smart steady backup PG.

Forrest has been very good lately. He doesnt do anything flashy, but he always makes the right pass and is good enough to put pressure on the rim while having that aforementioned ability. He's got the ability to make others around him better despite not being all that great himself.

Dunn doesnt have that. I will give you he's a more impactful man defender, certainly more aggressive, but Forrest fits the offense much better. The reality is we arent putting Dunn into a playoff game because he's going to entirely **** the offensive flow up. He's a bad bad bad offensive player on all fronts.
I believe there'd be as strong of an argument to give Dunn playoff minutes as there would be to give Clarkson playoff minutes. That's not to say that it would play out that way or that Quin would actually give those minutes, but I think the argument would be just as strong. Our "historic offense" is there to facilitate playing someone like Dunn 10 mpg. Otherwise, we'll have "historic collapse" or continue to put up "historically bad" clutch numbers where we fall apart at the seams.
 
And opponents have a defensive rating of 97 when Forrest is on the court btw. If you look at the lineup data, all the non-garbage time lineups he is in perform excellent.

It's the garbage time lineups he is in that struggle.

(all small sample size of course)
He's a decent defender. With how poor our team is on individual defense it would make him relatively good by comparison. But in the amount of time as 10 mpg, we're needing a microwave defender. Someone who's the defensive Clarkson equivalent.
 
tl;dr right now we're talking about trading Clarkson for someone who is a much less offensive volume player because we no longer are dependent on that. When Clarkson first came over, we needed his high usage because he was filling a vacuum. Now we know we could certainly get by with a role guy who's competent. We're the opposite on defense. We're talking about having a role guy who's competent when our deficiency is so huge that it's like when we needed to rely on Clarkson's usage. We need the equivalent to fill the vacuum... the "high-usage" defender guy who takes a huge burden, and not just a competent guy who can plug in.
 
I believe there'd be as strong of an argument to give Dunn playoff minutes as there would be to give Clarkson playoff minutes. That's not to say that it would play out that way or that Quin would actually give those minutes, but I think the argument would be just as strong. Our "historic offense" is there to facilitate playing someone like Dunn 10 mpg. Otherwise, we'll have "historic collapse" or continue to put up "historically bad" clutch numbers where we fall apart at the seams.
Our historic offense can facilitate guys like Royce, players who have next to no on-ball talent but can shoot and are high IQ ball movers.

It can't facilitate on-ball guards who arent smart decision makers and terrible shooters.
 
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