QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
Color me shocked. You're so convinced but are a eunuch when push comes to shove.
Letting Paul Millsap leave killed the Utah Jazz
- Thread starter Yell42
- Start date
Color me shocked. You're so convinced but are a eunuch when push comes to shove.
Dumb... Hiring Corbin as a head coach killed the Jazz. Not letting Milsap leave.
"Not making asinine bets with one of the boards resident rabble-rousers makes one a eunuch" said the rabble-rouser.
BTW, who is getting to the ECF if not the Hawks? Are Bulls/Cavs a lock to you?
NAOS
Well-Known Member
**** off, guy. But I'm not shocked that gambling is your favorite metric of manliness. And that you lack imagination or values outside of what money measures.
Jamezz
Well-Known Member
Boston exchanged Rondo and Green for two late firsts and three seconds.
Utah exchanged Milsap and Jefferson for two late firsts and three seconds.
Please explain to me how Boston’s approach is so much better than Utah’s?
We agree that you are perplexed.
By "shorter contracts" I guess you mean "expiring this year" since otherwise the GS deal would not be possible. This would require a counterparty team to be willing to give you an expiring in addition to other assets, which is quite a leap of faith (expiring contracts are very valuable). The counterparty would also be taking the risk that Millsap/Jefferson would bolt in free agency (see Dwight Howard and the Lakers fiasco)
I'd sum up by saying that by oversimplifying the situation you may be missing the big picture.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Is this accounting for the fact that they turned Wright into another first?
I think you also have to account for Foye in the tally you gave for Utah.
Last edited:
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Finally, someone who gets it! As you noted. we'd didn't let them go for nothing. The cap space we created by not re-signing them (or taking on contracts at the deadline) was used to get draft picks in the summer. Could we have "double-dipped" and gotten expirings and picks at the deadline and then again in the summer? Perhaps in Millsap's case; he had an easier contract to trade. But it wasn't a given. Most contenders just didn't have high enough expirings to trade along with giving us a late first. And a non-playoff team isn't going to give up a lottery pick, especially for someone who would be an UFA; they'd offer a 2nd at best.
But whenever anyone brings up the Big Al argument, I always ask for examples of possible trades. No one has yet provided any. Why have I been so confident? Because I looked at all 30 teams at the time to come up with possible trade scenarios. Playoff teams? There were only a couple who had non-key players they could have traded to make salaries match. Non-playoff teams? Why bother; he'd be an UFA? Yes, I know..."Bird rights." So that opened up a few more possibilities. However, KOC and DL had stated for a few years that they wanted cap flexibility, which meant they did NOT want to take on multi-year contracts in a trade. POSSIBLY, POSSIBLY, the Jazz could have received a 2nd round pick from a non-contender wanting to acquire Jefferson's Bird rights. Don't you think DL probably explored that idea? Besides, is a 2nd-rounder all that valuable? DL BOUGHT a 1st and easily traded up in the 2nd a few years ago.
Utak executed their plan perfectly: they had the cap room to go after other FA's and still could have brought Millsap and DMC back. IIRC, we were linked to a few FA's, but they were getting significantly overpaid. So DL went the rebuild route.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Foye brought us an additional 2nd, IINM.
Also, the Wright compensation is overstated. It is a highly conditional first. It's protected 1-12 for the next two seasons and then turns into two seconds. It is highly UNLIKELY it actually does become a first. It certainkly won't this year. And Minnesota, even when healthy, is probably not among the 10 best teams in the WC.
So what was the final tally for using that cap space in the summer? Two firsts, four seconds and cash? And all Utah had to do was assume salaries which brought them up to the salary floor, money which would have been spent otherwise (if not on those guys, then divvied amongst the roster players as bonuses).
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Look, I liked the Millsap-Jefferson decision AT THE TIME. And, I think a lot of other people understand the nuances that you keep trying to push.
(1) What I, and many others, don't understand, was the decision to stick with Jefferson for as long as they did. That is, FOR YEARS. I know the trade market for his salary in his final year wasn't great, but I'd be surprised if we couldn't have moved on before then (and for better value) if we had started shopping him the second that Deron was traded.
(2) The very second that SAS swept the **** out of us in the playoffs, and a full-rebuild became inevitable, we should have gotten value for Sap.
It's only because (1) and (2) didn't happen that I liked the GSW trade. And, like I've said before, getting Rudy really helps erase the greater margin of value we might have gotten if we were more proactive, so this is all academic at this point.
But, really, you need to put down your battle axe on this issue.
Good question.
I turned Wright into two seconds. It only becomes a first if Minny climbs out of the lottery (top 12) this year (impossible) or next (very unlikely).
To keep it simple, I excluded Foye, as well as other secondary players who were needed for salary matching, salary dumps, etc. I did the same for Boston deal. Foye did not fit into the Jazz long-term development plan (freeing up time for Alec) so therefore was a minor part of the deal and frankly not much of a give-up nor did we get much value for him.
The other issue ignored to simplify is that Rondo was arguably a much more highly sought after asset (vs Paul/Al). Teams look to him as a "missing piece" of a championship puzzle (he's got a ring), I doubt teams saw Paul/Al the same way.
QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
You're a joke. Once again, you run you run your mouth and then run and hide when **** gets real. First Trout, now me. Not sure why I bothered. Should've known you're a complete *****.
homeytennis
Well-Known Member
We got nothing for Sap and Big Al nothing. They, Mo Foye and JYD left as free agents with no compensation whatsoever.
QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
Those are two teams I'd trust come April and May a lot more than I would the Hawks, yes.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Holy ****. I was there. Trout never showed up. I waited for over an hour.
Your point on Foye is fair one, it is hard to disaggregate pieces of a multi-team deal. I saw Foye as needed to balance salaries in the overall deal, the Nuggets liked him, the Jazz saw him as expendable. The question I would ask is: Would the Jazz have done this deal (with Foye to Denver) if Denver had not provided a second round pick? My view is that the other benefits (the 2 firsts) would have sealed the deal without it. But it is impossible to prove either way. Thanks for the challenge, naos.
It is kinda like checkers versus chess. If you are playing checkers, you can do okay looking one move at a time. It you are playing chess, it is all about the second order effects and strategy.
Those playing checkers believe the Jazz got nothing for Al and Paul.
Those playing chess see how this move was part of an overarching strategy that gave the Jazz the optionality to make the Golden State deal and land assets (not only draft picks but contracts that expired after one year, giving more optionality a year later).
It is a bit tricky understanding how expiring contracts used strategically, but it is a very important concept in NBA asset management strategy and how successful NBA management teams build for the future.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
pretty predictable for you to jump into an issue that's over a year old.... and be a bitch.