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Siro said:
There is no hope, purpose, or meaning. No good. No evil. From nothing everything came, and once the last proton decays, to nothing all will return.
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well, this is an assertion that is pretty hard to objectively prove, but it is the position of so many of us humans. Even the Bible says "dust to dust" , while pointing to an improbable hope, perhaps. again, beyond "proof".

I say a man's reach should exceed his grasp. It is better to have some kind of good, so far as we can hope or believe anything we humans or any of us as persons can think of, and develop reasons, to try. Even if it is the government we try to emplace as the chief means for making things "better". I only object to some government actions as imo unwise.
 
what? no one reads my drivel? I slip in a claim equivalent to Moses' "Burning Bush", and nobody immediately calls it crap?

OK, so with me it was a pomegranate bush. behind me was a fig tree. I think I must have been age ten. The issue was some abusive situations at home, and I was planning to run away. I had gotten maps, located springs in the desert, and was planning to use a bike, carry some food and water, a shovel so I could dig a dugout near a spring, and nobody but nobody could ever find me. I woulda gotten pretty hungry, and cold in the winter. I was giving my reasons to God, saying I might as well be in a Russian prison.

Somehow, the idea came and took hold in me: "If you can endure this you can endure anything", along with a sorta feeling that I was loved.

I was just totally blown away with the idea that God loved me and would answer my prayer. I went into that clump of pomegranate bushes and fig trees a real bawling babe, and left pretty nearly a real man. It was transforming.

Somehow, I just don't remember the problems continuing. I think I was no longer a suitable target.
 
For that and a hundred or more similar real experiences, I could not reasonably believe either that there is no God consistent with Judeo-Christian theology or that I am not loved by that God, or Father.

When I hear faithful Mormons relate comparable experiences, I find a familiar thread that proves I'm not the only one who knows.

When I listen to the radio program "Unshackled", produced by Pacific Garden Mission, I find the same reality.

https://www.pgm.org/donate/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=pacific garden mission chicago&utm_campaign=paid&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkP6rl-ny2gIVh_hkCh2W-QALEAAYASAAEgJHN_D_BwE


https://unshackled.org/
 
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I am reposting this video, which still is a favorite with me. I would count folks who can sing like this as my friends, my best friends.



there are probably very few people who could have a better, more objective, more reasonable basis for believing this reality than me. Maybe millions who if they thought it through and understood all that God has done for them. But I have had years to think about it. Many years.
 
So here is a fun account of Jesus, and how one man figures one good proof of who Jesus was.



He makes the same mistake about who Jesus is that Mormons have made since Talmadge wrote "Jesus The Christ". Of course Joseph Smith declared "Bad doctrine does not make a bad man.", and.... well.... who ever read the Old Testament anyways. The people who knew Jesus alive could not understand how a man could do what he did unless he was God.

mistaking His declaration about his identity for being an equivalence statement not what it was, an example statement setting a pattern for the teaching that if we follow Him we can become like Him.
 
So anyways, taking all this back to my discussion above about Life and Love. It's an on-going program, this propagation of Life through this Universe, and something we can choose to help with.

The problem I see with atheists or unbelievers or people who merely don't see the whole picture, is that we don't see what we should be or could be doing.

Of course, human beings carry in themselves the capacities for virtue whether we understand God, or believe in God, or not. And most of us are sorta amazing, all things considered. Most of us want to do good stuff, and most of us love other people.... well, at least..... most of us love dogs anyways...... lol. And even dogs love us. So why wouldn't God?
 
Frankly, for folks like Ron, and Red, and Karl Marx for that matter, who think religion is some kind of problem keeping back human progress, I think about all I can say is that this world is God's. And there is a plan, a better plan, for it.

Life was brought here in the first place. There have been other worlds. This creation business is an old, old business. Whatever the problems have been before, Management has seen what has gone wrong, and found some way to deal with it.
I don't know what happens when a sun like ours becomes a Red Giant, and our world is consumed in the heat, but I bet we get to go on somewhere.

It is imo a great God who can afford to let us think what we want, and it would be a great government if we could just be that free between ourselves.
 
babe said:
Frankly, for folks like Ron, and Red, and Karl Marx for that matter, who think religion is some kind of problem keeping back human progress, I think about all I can say is that this world is God's. And there is a plan, a better plan, for it.
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Why would you make believe you actually know me that you could draw this kind of judgement? You've never met me, and I have never spoken a word on this forum that would lead you or anyone else to come to this conclusion.

That said, I did walk away from organized religion at a very young age, but I never stopped asking what I always thought were the most essential questions: who are we, where do we come from, where are we going? And I had experiences that led me to believe there was an underlying reality, encompassed by what some call the perennial wisdom. I found myself most comfortable within the gnostic tradition, and I still feel that way. I'm just not interested in the outer garments of the faith my folks belonged to, and in which they raised me. I had to walk my own path. And I had experiences that told me it was the right way for me.

I don't want to get too personal here, it's nobody's business, and of interest to nobody beyond myself. But, in addressing those questions that have made of me a seeker my entire life, I do reflect upon my own inner experiences and those of people who have had similar experiences, and I left this link earlier in this thread as an example. I just don't have need for the outer garments of the world's faiths. I mean, who needs religious wars, anyway? They really haven't helped, have they? Yet, I'm no follower of Karl Marx. You should not pretend that you know me, because you don't. Just leave me out of your musings. There's no need of that, and I can't be used to buttress any points you're trying to make in the above paragraph. Of that I can assure you. Except for the Plan. Don't presume I'm ignorant of that, because you would be doing me a disservice for no reason other then hearing yourself talk....

http://www.nderf.org/Archives/exceptional.html
 
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It was Ron's point that he does not need religion or belief in God to have virtue. A fair enough point which I know is to some extent true.

I know a little about your thinking and visions of, specifically, the little Resistance or revolution to save what you deem to be democracy, which shows your conviction and agreement that some of us have a plan for bettering this world. I think that fits with the atheist vision pretty good, a vision that consists of some plan of our own making.

Of course you belong to the group I am creating for this little essay, and people like you are a major element of contemporary culture. Maybe Bulletproof's sarcasm about not needing the Sky Daddy would fit as well. I could paint the theme with a Kicky, pretty sure there is enough ego there to demonstrate the point of the human belief in ourselves and our plans. I could probably draw out some of my own thinking and throw myself under the bus as one with that exact failing, if it be a failing.

Anyone who insists on crafting an imaginary God in their own heads would fit as well. Anyone who denies any specific concept anyone else has of "God" with the one essential feature of the God of Israel as presented in the Old Testament, a distinct character who has made a covenant, a promise, with Man, would fit as well.

Don't take it as an insult, really. You do fit in the class of folks we believe are human. In the class of folks the Born Again folks call sinners/children of God/unbelievers in that specific God who is the focus of their belief.... in their case, Jesus.

My idea of "God" is distinctly different, doctrinally, from the Trinity, or from Jesus, the Son of God. Because the Man with the Plan in my concept which I am laying out here is the same character as presented in the Old Testament with the tetragrammaton YHVH or JHVH.

Anyone, the whole kit and caboodle of folks with any kind of vision of their own perfect world, any believer in world peace, in world governance, in our government, or even the evening news would fit as well.

My experience which I refer to above as my basis for a rational belief that there exists a God essentially of the character of Jehovah is here presented as an alternative to our crusades for political salvation laid in the cradle of our own wishes.

I mention Karl Marx because his specific doctrine that religion or belief in God is "the opiate of the masses" and is a large factor in our contemporary culture and specifically Democrat Party themes, and our educational system's doctrines around evolution and values.

You deserve to get the mention because you have such strong convictions that you are right. I could hardly even talk about the Trump phenomenon without discussing the Grand Canyon scaled rift between Trump voters and the DumpTrumpsters.

Hardly any of the Trump critics, Colton included, Mormons generally included, Mitt Romney enthusiasts included, who are dismayed to see the political engines of social progress being trashed by outsider Trump, really understand the specific beliefs of religious folks who are indeed comfortable with what Trump is doing even if he is one of the greater sinners of our kind in any respect, because he is specifically doing what he is doing.... unhitching the apparatus of the government gone amok.

Trumpsters might be another group of us humans who have our own kind of vision, but the ideas of the American Way, of American Exceptionalism, of in fact belief in our Constitutional Principles of Limited Government as some kind of Divinely Inspired vision of human liberty, are specifically what Trump has chosen to play his horn to.

For all your work in here to criticize Trump, I could hardly discuss the subject of political visions of human salvation without discussing your points in great detail.
 
Anyways, Red, in my specific point, I recognize that every post you have made with reference to Trump or Russia demonstrates a whole-hearted conviction that Trump represents an existential threat to human civilization, and the political strategy to oppose Trump systematically includes the effort to alienate him from his religious, conservative base. The fact that this strategy is so bizarrely pursued in the media and is so ineffective with supposedly religious Trumpsters deserves explanation.

The explanation is that it is obvious to even poor demented "Jesus Freaks", let alone union workers and blacks living in our Democrat Urban Plantation Experiments (DUPEs), and many other supposedly solid democrat voter blocks, that some of you believe we cannot consistently believe in God and love Trump for what he is doing.

We don't buy your load, we are tired of your assumptions about us.

Trump got the vote because we could smell the opportunity of economic liberty. The whole scheme of political fragmentation and Globalist planning for us has come undone. The wheels have fallen off that wagon. The 2018 election will not be the blue tide just because of the fact that so many folks of all kinds..... minorities included....HipHop believers like Sonny Johnson and Constitutionalists like Ted Cruz.... just don't want this government plan some of you believe is Good.
 
babe said:
Anyways, Red, in my specific point, I recognize that every post you have made with reference to Trump or Russia demonstrates a whole-hearted conviction that Trump represents an existential threat to human civilization, and the political strategy to oppose Trump systematically includes the effort to alienate him from his religious, conservative base. The fact that this strategy is so bizarrely pursued in the media and is so ineffective with supposedly religious Trumpsters deserves explanation.

The explanation is that it is obvious to even poor demented "Jesus Freaks", let alone union workers and blacks living in our Democrat Urban Plantation Experiments (DUPEs), and many other supposedly solid democrat voter blocks, that some of you believe we cannot consistently believe in God and love Trump for what he is doing.

We don't buy your load, we are tired of your assumptions about us.

Trump got the vote because we could smell the opportunity of economic liberty. The whole scheme of political fragmentation and Globalist planning for us has come undone. The wheels have fallen off that wagon. The 2018 election will not be the blue tide just because of the fact that so many folks of all kinds..... minorities included....HipHop believers like Sonny Johnson and Constitutionalists like Ted Cruz.... just don't want this government plan some of you believe is Good.
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Economic tyranny you mean. You call monopoly capitalism economic liberty. Just the reverse. It stifles competition and leads to totalitarianism in which we become a society of the strong oppressing the weak. This is just the opposite of Christianity.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
Economic tyranny you mean. You call monopoly capitalism economic liberty. Just the reverse. It stifles competition and leads to totalitarianism in which we become a society of the strong oppressing the weak. This is just the opposite of Christianity.
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I'm generally sympathetic with this concern, and I know Trump needs to be watched. I know the Chinese mainlanders have hopes of cornering American markets with the same kind of strategies that have worked so well with McConnell and the Clintons.

anyone with government power needs to be watched, and I agree with you that most of the conservatives who are ardent simpletons about limited government or free markets need exposure to the light of honest reporting of who is giving money to whom.

Our system of markets and governance today is highly crafted with carve-out cash cows to compensate big political campaign contributors. Cartelism and Big Government are indeed the twin barbarian monsters of the New World Order.
 
The recent Supreme Court decisions have virtually destroyed any remnant of democracy. McCain had started the move to get money out of politics and now no one even talks about it any longer. While I've been a life-long Democrat -- the DNC has turned me into an Independent -- our nation would've been so much better had McCain been President rather than Bush.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
The recent Supreme Court decisions have virtually destroyed any remnant of democracy. McCain had started the move to get money out of politics and now no one even talks about it any longer. While I've been a life-long Democrat -- the DNC has turned me into an Independent -- our nation would've been so much better had McCain been President rather than Bush.
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So I would like to hear about McCain's move or idea and what went wrong that it went nowhere. How is he/was he different from Bush?
 
Note to babe. Don't say Red isn't spiritual or doesn't believe in God one way or another again.
and Don't say Bullet isn't supporting some libertarian ideas about rights, even gun rights.
and don't say only religious people can be good.

OK. Got it.
 
religions in the hands of unrestrained powerful men, and governments in the hands of unrestrained powerful men or even experts.... are all alike in one regard. It doesn't matter what the ideal is, or what the political rhetoric sounds like, unrestrained power in human hands has so often turned out bad.

That is what makes the US Constitution worth sticking to, and sticking up for. A sorta self-checking restrained on the departments of power.

What needs fixing is the agencies that are now writing laws in various regards with no public vote allowed. Comments, yes, that is good so far as it goes, but we actually need some kind of electoral input.

And that is what makes the effort to restrain Trump such a mess. Do we get to elect a President who can change things, or not????? Is it really too much to let elections happen and have actual consequences?????
 
babe said:
So I would like to hear about McCain's move or idea and what went wrong that it went nowhere. How is he/was he different from Bush?
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To be honest, I never looked into it. But you might recall he was leading the push to publicly fund the Presidential campaign. I don't know the specifics but he couldn't get enough support in Congress. And then we got Citizens United, thanks to McConnell who led the support for that.

And Bush, he was part of the "ruling" family and he brought along his father's buddies Cheney and Rumsfold -- they ran the country while he was President, and I'm sure Daddy Bush had input. They were behind 9-11, no doubt about it, and we're still mired in conflicts in the Middle East. 9-11 was the excuse.
 
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