Game Thread May 26, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Grizzlies - Game 2

[Max Porter]

These guys have to learn to stay in front of their man at least. Revolving doors on the perimeter won't cut it.

And why the **** did we continue to fight over screens that just allowed Morant to go exactly where he wanted to go? Go under the damn screen and force him to take jump shots. He's not a good shooter.

This is another reason I feel QS is overrated. I think he's decent at making adjustments at the half or quarter or even been games, but he is so rigid he is really bad at making live reads and adjusting to it on the fly. Instead we give up a 43-point quarter getting slaughtered fighting over screens and sitting Gobert and Mitchell too long, but he makes a good adjustment between quarters and we luckily executed the plan and won. It didn't work so well in the first game where we made the adjustment but didn't execute and lost.

If Mitchell played even 15 minutes in game 1 we'd be up 2-0 and then no one would be saying quinn is overrated. He's not overrated. He's a great coach, especially from a developmental perspective. He's taken mitchell, gobert's, joe ingles, JC, even Niang to a higher level. I'd say he's a top 5 to top 8 coach in the league.

 

[infection]

These guys have to learn to stay in front of their man at least. Revolving doors on the perimeter won't cut it.

And why the **** did we continue to fight over screens that just allowed Morant to go exactly where he wanted to go? Go under the damn screen and force him to take jump shots. He's not a good shooter.

This is another reason I feel QS is overrated. I think he's decent at making adjustments at the half or quarter or even been games, but he is so rigid he is really bad at making live reads and adjusting to it on the fly. Instead we give up a 43-point quarter getting slaughtered fighting over screens and sitting Gobert and Mitchell too long, but he makes a good adjustment between quarters and we luckily executed the plan and won. It didn't work so well in the first game where we made the adjustment but didn't execute and lost.

We try to stay close with him on the perimeter, only to get burned and he gets a high percentage shot or a chance to put Rudy in foul trouble. Baffling why you wouldn’t just camp out in his spots. If he burns you at 15’, then fine; Rudy is there. But if he burns you 25’ out then he’s headed into the lane with a lot of momentum and the whistles are flying.

 

[yamers]

drummond lol

 

[Moonlight Graham]

I think it's worth trying a zone on them, at least as a change of pace on a few possessions. It's hard to see how it could be much worse than what we've tried so far.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Yeah, I am a bit disappointed in Snyder this series. It feels like we're running a defense designed to stop a completely different type of offense than what we're actually going against.

Agreeeeed!

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Thurl asked a question between games 1 & 2... something like:

The Jazz are designed to stop the three and force lower percentage paint points. But what adjustments do you need to make when a team like Memphis prefers the midrange over the 3 point shot?

Needless to say, Quinn answer sounded a bit like... we are going to defend the 3 point line to the death. It wasn't an inspiring Chessmaster's response.

I like Quin, but I think he is over thinking this one.

 

[candrew]

Thurl asked a question between games 1 & 2... something like:

The Jazz are designed to stop the three and force lower percentage paint points. But what adjustments do you need to make when a team like Memphis prefers the midrange over the 3 point shot?

Needless to say, Quinn answer sounded a bit like... we are going to defend the 3 point line to the death. It wasn't an inspiring Chessmaster's response.

I like Quin, but I think he is over thinking this one.

I think the recipe is, regardless of opponent, The Jazz run the opposing team off the 3 point line, Rudy does his thing in the paint and Utah has an average night or better from 3 and the win probability is very high.

Can't really argue with that.

 

[Max Porter]

I’m not convinced yet that the Grizzlies can beat us with a healthy Mitchell. They barely eeked out a win by 3 points without Donovan. Restricted minutes Donovan gives us a 12 point win. I’d take that any day in the playoffs.

I think the Grizzlies will split in Memphis and the jazz then take game 5.

 

[Sean]

I think the recipe is, regardless of opponent, The Jazz run the opposing team off the 3 point line, Rudy does his thing in the paint and Utah has an average night or better from 3 and the win probability is very high.

Can't really argue with that.

Maybe not in the regular season but is it an effective strategy in the playoffs?

I guess we're gonna find out. But Utah has been a pretty mediocre playoff team under Quin so far.

 

[MT Steve]

Maybe not in the regular season but is it an effective strategy in the playoffs?

I guess we're gonna find out. But Utah has been a pretty mediocre playoff team under Quin so far.

Have they been?

Advanced to the 2nd round as the 5th seed in 2017 and 2018 before getting beat by a dramatically better team.
Lost in Round 1 in 2019 to a dramatically better team.
Went to the buzzer of Game 7 as the 6th seed in 2020. Blowing a 3-1 lead wasn't great, but I don't think that Jazz team w/o Bojan was better than Denver.

 

[Sean]

Have they been?

Advanced to the 2nd round as the 5th seed in 2017 and 2018 before getting beat by a dramatically better team.
Lost in Round 1 in 2019 to a dramatically better team.
Went to the buzzer of Game 7 as the 6th seed in 2020. Blowing a 3-1 lead wasn't great, but I don't think that Jazz team w/o Bojan was better than Denver.

Yes. They've been completely non-competitive in the semifinals under Quin, with a record of just 1-8 and while they were able to get first-round wins against LAC & OKC, the last two seasons, they've got blown out by the Rockets 1-4 in the first round and blew a 3-1 lead vs Denver. Not exactly inspiring performances and what I'd call pretty mediocre.

After all, we're just 14-22 in the playoffs under Quin. Nothing good or remarkable about that.

But I agree that if the Jazz get to the WCF, it'll be safe to say his strategy has proven effective.

 

[prodigy]

Jazz werent expecting much from those 2nd round series if we are being honest. This years team has much loftier goals and will tell us the quality of the head coach. Blowing the 3-1 lead to the nuggz still hurts but was more of a front office issue when we lost our toughness and tried to replace it with Tony Bradley. Big oops.

 

[MT Steve]

Yes. They've been completely non-competitive in the semifinals under Quin, with a record of just 1-8 and while they were able to get first-round wins against LAC & OKC, the last two seasons, they've got blown out by the Rockets 1-4 in the first round and blew a 3-1 lead vs Denver. Not exactly inspiring performances and what I'd call pretty mediocre.

After all, we're just 14-22 in the playoffs under Quin. Nothing good or remarkable about that.

But I agree that if the Jazz get to the WCF, it'll be safe to say his strategy has proven effective.

Going 0-4 against the KD Warriors and 1-4 against the team that pushed the KD Warriors to 7 is pretty reasonable for a 5th seed.

Coming within an inch of upsetting the 3rd seed without our 2nd best scorer isn't bad either.

It's not like the Jazz are coming up short of expectations relative to their regular season performances.

 

[Sean]

Going 0-4 against the KD Warriors and 1-4 against the team that pushed the KD Warriors to 7 is pretty reasonable for a 5th seed.

Coming within an inch of upsetting the 3rd seed without our 2nd best scorer isn't bad either.

It's not like the Jazz are coming up short of expectations relative to their regular season performances.

And I didn't say he was awful, either. But there's nothing about his playoff record, or wins, to indicate he's anything beyond mediocre in the postseason.

I say that not just because he's lost series, which is understandable, since, as you pointed out, the teams he did lose to some of those years were very, very good. But just how he's lost series - the Denver series included, which was likely the biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history.

However, the total lack of competitiveness in those series makes it impossible for me to grade him anything but mediocre at this time.

Okay, give him a pass on 2017 since the Warriors only lost one playoff game that year. But in 2018? Meh. The Rockets were definitely a good team, but the Jazz did no better than Minnesota, as an 8th seed, did. In 2019, the Rockets again easily beat the Jazz and were a pretty easy out for GS in the second round.

Again, not saying he's bad here. But there's nothing that says he hasn't been mediocre in the playoffs at this point. Some of it may be a result of unfortunate seeding, but as I said already, that's why my view may change this year. If Utah makes it to the WCF, I think it's clear that this is the case. But until that happens, I can only go off what has happened already and those results aren't all that great.

But for transparency sake, I think the franchise as a whole has been pretty damn mediocre in the playoffs - and that includes Sloan's tenure. The Jazz is the 4th winningest team in NBA history and something like only 19th when it comes to playoff win percentage. If the team overperforms, it's almost always in that 4/5 match-up, which is about the weakest you can get in overperforming - but have underperformed, or laid some serious playoff stinkers, far more than they've ever gone out and shocked the NBA world as a strong underdog (in fact, I can't think of the last series the Jazz entered serious underdogs and pulled out a win).

 

[MT Steve]

It's rare in general for a team to win a playoff series as an underdog.

Quin's Jazz did it twice in two years, and came within an inch of doing in 3 times in 4 years.

Calling the Jazz loss against the Nuggets the "biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history" seems pretty damn silly to me. When they got Gary Harris back for Games 6 and 7, they were straight up the better team.

 

[Sean]

It's rare in general for a team to win a playoff series as an underdog.

Quin's Jazz did it twice in two years, and came within an inch of doing in 3 times in 4 years.

Calling the Jazz loss against the Nuggets the "biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history" seems pretty damn silly to me. When they got Gary Harris back for Games 6 and 7, they were straight up the better team.

And that's exactly why he's mediocre. This isn't a hard concept to get. Maybe you're just struggling with the word mediocre. I apologize. Mediocre isn't necessarily bad. It just means of moderate quality. Not very good. But it's also not bad. It's pretty much the definition of Quin's playoff record here at Utah. It's not all that good. It's not all that bad.

You said it's not like he's coming up short of expectations and I agree - if he was doing that, it'd mean his playoff record was bad and not mediocre. If the Jazz do lose to the Grizzlies, tho, I would probably change my perception on that, just as I would likely change my perception for the better if they make the WCF. Why? Because right now he's right there in the middle, where he hasn't done enough good to overcome the bad. The LAC and OKC series were great. The GSW, Houston (x2) and Denver series? Not so great. And that's why I consider his playoff success fairly mediocre. It's not very good. It's not very bad. It's a mix. Some good and some bad. Which, to me at least, is the definition of mediocre.

As for your last comment, I am sorry, it is not ridiculous to call last year's loss to Denver likely the biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history - not with them being up 3-1 and up 71-56 midway through the third quarter of game five, which was an elimination game that they would eventually lose. I can think of some bad choke jobs in Jazz history (blowing a 2-0 lead vs GSW in 1989, or a 2-0 series lead against Dallas in 2001) but nothing quite like that we saw from Denver. And if it's not the biggest choke job in franchise history, it certainly ties for the biggest, which isn't much better.

 

[Max Porter]

And I didn't say he was awful, either. But there's nothing about his playoff record, or wins, to indicate he's anything beyond mediocre in the postseason.

I say that not just because he's lost series, which is understandable, since, as you pointed out, the teams he did lose to some of those years were very, very good. But just how he's lost series - the Denver series included, which was likely the biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history.

However, the total lack of competitiveness in those series makes it impossible for me to grade him anything but mediocre at this time.

Okay, give him a pass on 2017 since the Warriors only lost one playoff game that year. But in 2018? Meh. The Rockets were definitely a good team, but the Jazz did no better than Minnesota, as an 8th seed, did. In 2019, the Rockets again easily beat the Jazz and were a pretty easy out for GS in the second round.

Again, not saying he's bad here. But there's nothing that says he hasn't been mediocre in the playoffs at this point. Some of it may be a result of unfortunate seeding, but as I said already, that's why my view may change this year. If Utah makes it to the WCF, I think it's clear that this is the case. But until that happens, I can only go off what has happened already and those results aren't all that great.

But for transparency sake, I think the franchise as a whole has been pretty damn mediocre in the playoffs - and that includes Sloan's tenure. The Jazz is the 4th winningest team in NBA history and something like only 19th when it comes to playoff win percentage. If the team overperforms, it's almost always in that 4/5 match-up, which is about the weakest you can get in overperforming - but have underperformed, or laid some serious playoff stinkers, far more than they've ever gone out and shocked the NBA world as a strong underdog (in fact, I can't think of the last series the Jazz entered serious underdogs and pulled out a win).

Team success is partially dictated by coaches no doubt but championships are mostly dictated by great players. You don’t think Sloan would’ve won a championship with the championship bulls or Kobe and Shaqs Lakers? Or Rick Carlisle or Monty Williams or Jeff hornaceck? With those players any of those coaches would have a ring

 

[Sean]

Team success is partially dictated by coaches no doubt but championships are mostly dictated by great players. You don’t think Sloan would’ve won a championship with the championship bulls or Kobe and Shaqs Lakers? Or Rick Carlisle or Monty Williams or Jeff hornaceck? With those players any of those coaches would have a ring

Well I'm not talking championship success. But yes, I think Sloan probably would have won a title with Shaq and Kobe. Whether he would have dominated at the level Phil Jackson did with the Lakers? I don't know.

But I also think Sloan is a great coach. Totally deserving of his Hall of Fame status. I would not say, though, that any coach could step in and win so easily. Case in point: the Lakers under Del Harris. He had Shaq and Kobe, albeit a younger Kobe, and got swept by the Jazz in the WCF. Kurt Rambis, in 1999, couldn't do it, either. Yet, a year later, Jackson did with the Lakers.

I don't like Phil Jackson. I think he's a pompous ***. I also think he's the greatest coach in NBA history. Yes, some of that is due to being paired with three of the greatest players to ever play the game, but it's clear he knew how to handle those teams and coach to their strengths.

But this isn't about winning a title. I'm not going to say Quin needs to win a title for my perception of his playoff performance to instantly get better. I already pointed out that if he gets the Jazz to the WCF, it would be very hard for me to suggest he's mediocre. At least for now. All things evolve, right? At one time, Scott Brooks looked like a fantastic playoff coach, having taken the Thunder to three Western Conference Finals and a NBA Finals. But that's where players come into play, right? And having obscene talent masked his coaching deficiencies that are more prevalent with the Wizards than they were with the Thunder.

Quin is so new in his tenure with the Jazz that my opinion of him is still evolving. This isn't Jerry Sloan in 2007 after all.

 

[fishonjazz]

And I didn't say he was awful, either. But there's nothing about his playoff record, or wins, to indicate he's anything beyond mediocre in the postseason.

I say that not just because he's lost series, which is understandable, since, as you pointed out, the teams he did lose to some of those years were very, very good. But just how he's lost series - the Denver series included, which was likely the biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history.

However, the total lack of competitiveness in those series makes it impossible for me to grade him anything but mediocre at this time.

Okay, give him a pass on 2017 since the Warriors only lost one playoff game that year. But in 2018? Meh. The Rockets were definitely a good team, but the Jazz did no better than Minnesota, as an 8th seed, did. In 2019, the Rockets again easily beat the Jazz and were a pretty easy out for GS in the second round.

Again, not saying he's bad here. But there's nothing that says he hasn't been mediocre in the playoffs at this point. Some of it may be a result of unfortunate seeding, but as I said already, that's why my view may change this year. If Utah makes it to the WCF, I think it's clear that this is the case. But until that happens, I can only go off what has happened already and those results aren't all that great.

But for transparency sake, I think the franchise as a whole has been pretty damn mediocre in the playoffs - and that includes Sloan's tenure. The Jazz is the 4th winningest team in NBA history and something like only 19th when it comes to playoff win percentage. If the team overperforms, it's almost always in that 4/5 match-up, which is about the weakest you can get in overperforming - but have underperformed, or laid some serious playoff stinkers, far more than they've ever gone out and shocked the NBA world as a strong underdog (in fact, I can't think of the last series the Jazz entered serious underdogs and pulled out a win).

Good post

 

[MT Steve]

And that's exactly why he's mediocre. This isn't a hard concept to get. Maybe you're just struggling with the word mediocre. I apologize. Mediocre isn't necessarily bad. It just means of moderate quality. Not very good. But it's also not bad. It's pretty much the definition of Quin's playoff record here at Utah. It's not all that good. It's not all that bad.

You said it's not like he's coming up short of expectations and I agree - if he was doing that, it'd mean his playoff record was bad and not mediocre. If the Jazz do lose to the Grizzlies, tho, I would probably change my perception on that, just as I would likely change my perception for the better if they make the WCF. Why? Because right now he's right there in the middle, where he hasn't done enough good to overcome the bad. The LAC and OKC series were great. The GSW, Houston (x2) and Denver series? Not so great. And that's why I consider his playoff success fairly mediocre. It's not very good. It's not very bad. It's a mix. Some good and some bad. Which, to me at least, is the definition of mediocre.

As for your last comment, I am sorry, it is not ridiculous to call last year's loss to Denver likely the biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history - not with them being up 3-1 and up 71-56 midway through the third quarter of game five, which was an elimination game that they would eventually lose. I can think of some bad choke jobs in Jazz history (blowing a 2-0 lead vs GSW in 1989, or a 2-0 series lead against Dallas in 2001) but nothing quite like that we saw from Denver. And if it's not the biggest choke job in franchise history, it certainly ties for the biggest, which isn't much better.

I'm not struggling with the word mediocre - I just straight up disagree with it.

I think in 2017, 2018, and 2020 they exceeded expectations. We blew a 3-1 lead against a team that was better than us, unfortunate, but pushing an eventual conference finalist to 7 without our 2nd best scorer? That's not mediocre.

The KD Warriors and Harden Rockets were so dramatically above us in terms of talent that no coach on the planet could've prevented the Jazz from getting destroyed.