Game Thread May 26, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Grizzlies - Game 2

[Sean]

I'm not struggling with the word mediocre - I just straight up disagree with it.

I think in 2017, 2018, and 2020 they exceeded expectations. We blew a 3-1 lead against a team that was better than us, unfortunate, but pushing an eventual conference finalist to 7 without our 2nd best scorer? That's not mediocre.

The KD Warriors and Harden Rockets were so dramatically above us in terms of talent that no coach on the planet could've prevented the Jazz from getting destroyed.

Then you just have a very low standards. I guess that's the difference. What I see is a lot of excuses on your end to justify some bad losses, or at least failure to even remotely show up in specific series. That tells me everything I need to know that I am right and you're stretching hard to portray Quin's playoff tenure as good - it's not. It's absolutely mediocre. Textbook definition of the word. Case closed. Now he can change that, but that remains to be seen if he will. And again, he's not awful in this regard. But no objective person would look at Utah's playoff performance under Quin and state it's good. Not with a 3-1 blown series lead, or putting up a 2-12 record in other elimination rounds.

Beyond that, didn't the Jazz tank to play Denver? lmao good job there.

 

[MT Steve]

Then you just have a very low standards. I guess that's the difference. What I see is a lot of excuses on your end to justify some bad losses, or at least failure to even remotely show up in specific series. That tells me everything I need to know that I am right and you're stretching hard to portray Quin's playoff tenure as good - it's not. It's absolutely mediocre. Textbook definition of the word. Case closed. Now he can change that, but that remains to be seen if he will. And again, he's not awful in this regard. But no objective person would look at Utah's playoff performance under Quin and state it's good. Not with a 3-1 blown series lead, or putting up a 2-12 record in other elimination rounds.

Beyond that, didn't the Jazz tank to play Denver? lmao good job there.

Nah, my standards are fine. I think you just believe that mediocre is "anything that is not absolutely fantastic", with zero room inbetween.

 

[Sean]

Nah, my standards are fine. I think you just believe that mediocre is "anything that is not absolutely fantastic", with zero room inbetween.

Please tell me what you'd consider a mediocre playoff record if not a coach who's 14-22 in the playoffs and 1-8 in semifinal games, on top of failing to make it out of the first-round the last two seasons, including a series where they led 3-1 and by 15 points midway through a game that could have closed out the series. So, please, give me an example of a coach you'd consider mediocre in the playoffs if that doesn't fit the bill. Thanks.

 

[MT Steve]

Please tell me what you'd consider a mediocre playoff record if not a coach who's 14-22 in the playoffs and 1-8 in semifinal games, on top of failing to make it out of the first-round the last two seasons, including a series where they led 3-1 and by 15 points midway through a game that could have closed out the series. So, please, give me an example of a coach you'd consider mediocre in the playoffs if that doesn't fit the bill. Thanks.

Only the very best teams in the NBA have winning records in the playoffs. You... do realize this, right?

This is the first year the Jazz have been one of the very best teams.

 

[Sean]

Only the very best teams in the NBA have winning records in the playoffs. You... do realize this, right?

This is the first year the Jazz have been one of the very best teams.

Dude, stop throwing up strawmen to deflect from your point. I never once said Quin's lack of having a winning record in the playoffs is the reason I consider him a mediocre playoff coach. If I based it on record, his 39% winning percentage would put him 19th among active coaches currently. If I were to go solely off that, I'd say he was a bad playoff coach. But I'm not saying that. I am saying he's mediocre, which his record, plus his accomplishments suggest is a pretty accurate description of where he should fall.

Again, I ask, who would you consider a mediocre playoff coach if Quin is a good playoff coach? Quin has not done anything yet to prove he's better than just average in the playoffs - and no, winning a couple first-round series in the 4/5 match-up doesn't mean he's better than mediocre. Why? Because had Utah lost those games, and failed to advance once under Quin, I'd be putting him in the bad column.

But I'm not doing that because, credit him, he had strong first-round wins against LAC and OKC in back-to-back seasons. But at the end of the day, the body of his work leaves questions. The first is whether he can guide Utah out of the second round, and to the Conference Finals. Certainly if he doesn't this year, you'll have to reevaluate your ranking - and I absolutely, as I've said already, will do the same if he does. But more importantly, when the Jazz go up against a better team, maybe the Lakers or the Nets or whomever if they get past Memphis, I'd like to see some competitiveness. The Jazz have just been plain awful head-to-head in three series under Quin and that fourth series they lost, after leading 3-1 with a fifteen-point lead midway through the third quarter of a close-out game, does drop him a bit. It's also why he's 19th out of 25 of current NBA coaches who've coached at least one game in the playoffs in win percentage.

Quin is a good coach. But his playoff resume is the definition of mediocre and likely will remain that way until he can get Utah beyond the semifinals.

 

[MT Steve]

Dude, stop throwing up strawmen to deflect from your point. I never once said Quin's lack of having a winning record in the playoffs is the reason I consider him a mediocre playoff coach. If I based it on record, his 39% winning percentage would put him 19th among active coaches currently. If I were to go solely off that, I'd say he was a bad playoff coach. But I'm not saying that. I am saying he's mediocre, which his record, plus his accomplishments suggest is a pretty accurate description of where he should fall.

Again, I ask, who would you consider a mediocre playoff coach if Quin is a good playoff coach? Quin has not done anything yet to prove he's better than just average in the playoffs - and no, winning a couple first-round series in the 4/5 match-up doesn't mean he's better than mediocre. Why? Because had Utah lost those games, and failed to advance once under Quin, I'd be putting him in the bad column.

But I'm not doing that because, credit him, he had strong first-round wins against LAC and OKC in back-to-back seasons. But at the end of the day, the body of his work leaves questions. The first is whether he can guide Utah out of the second round, and to the Conference Finals. Certainly if he doesn't this year, you'll have to reevaluate your ranking - and I absolutely, as I've said already, will do the same if he does. But more importantly, when the Jazz go up against a better team, maybe the Lakers or the Nets or whomever if they get past Memphis, I'd like to see some competitiveness. The Jazz have just been plain awful head-to-head in three series under Quin and that fourth series they lost, after leading 3-1 with a fifteen-point lead midway through the third quarter of a close-out game, does drop him a bit. It's also why he's 19th out of 25 of current NBA coaches who've coached at least one game in the playoffs in win percentage.

Quin is a good coach. But his playoff resume is the definition of mediocre and likely will remain that way until he can get Utah beyond the semifinals.

lol

A coach is mediocre because he couldn't get a 5th/6th seed to the WCF.

Yeah, like I said - your definition of mediocre is insane.

 

[Sean]

lol

A coach is mediocre because he couldn't get a 5th/6th seed to the WCF.

Yeah, like I said - your definition of mediocre is insane.

A coach is mediocre because he's lost two first-round series the last two seasons, including one 4-1 and the other after lead 3-1.
But I'm done with this conversation. It's clear you can't provide an example of who you consider a mediocre playoff coach because you know doing so will blow a hole in your entire argument.

Let's be honest: no one who seriously pays attention to the NBA, and isn't a fan boy, would consider any of that 'good'. You'd probably find some who consider it bad, but I won't. Quin is a good coach with a mediocre playoff resume. He's essentially Dwane Casey, who I would consider a mediocre playoff coach (and has a very similar playoff resume as Quin - though he did make the ECF once with the Raptors) and I'd consider someone like Nate McMillan a bad playoff coach, this potential run with Atlanta notwithstanding because who knows how it'll end. He's coached for seventeen seasons and has only advanced past the first-round once. Terry Stotts? Durable, but mediocre playoff coach.

Quin is absolutely closer to Terry Stotts in terms of playoff success than, say, Brad Stevens who, despite this year's ****-show, I consider a pretty good playoff coach.

But anyway, have a good one. I hope Quin can get Utah beyond the semifinals because I bet even you will have to concede if they lose to Memphis, or even in the second round, I'm quite correct in my statement. If they don't? I'll happily, as I've said all along, amend my position and bump Quin up to a good playoff coach.

 

[MT Steve]

He's essentially Dwane Casey, who I would consider a mediocre playoff coach (and has a very similar playoff resume as Quin - though he did make the ECF once with the Raptors)

lol what? Dwyane Casey has lost numerous series as the higher seed, Quin has lost zero.

What this quote reveals to me is that you're only considering results, regardless of talent level or seed.

Similar playoff resume, lmao. The results are similar, but the expectations were clearly not. How somebody can't see the difference blows my mind.

 

[Hekate]

And I didn't say he was awful, either. But there's nothing about his playoff record, or wins, to indicate he's anything beyond mediocre in the postseason.

I say that not just because he's lost series, which is understandable, since, as you pointed out, the teams he did lose to some of those years were very, very good. But just how he's lost series - the Denver series included, which was likely the biggest choke job in Jazz playoff history.

However, the total lack of competitiveness in those series makes it impossible for me to grade him anything but mediocre at this time.

Okay, give him a pass on 2017 since the Warriors only lost one playoff game that year. But in 2018? Meh. The Rockets were definitely a good team, but the Jazz did no better than Minnesota, as an 8th seed, did. In 2019, the Rockets again easily beat the Jazz and were a pretty easy out for GS in the second round.

Again, not saying he's bad here. But there's nothing that says he hasn't been mediocre in the playoffs at this point. Some of it may be a result of unfortunate seeding, but as I said already, that's why my view may change this year. If Utah makes it to the WCF, I think it's clear that this is the case. But until that happens, I can only go off what has happened already and those results aren't all that great.

But for transparency sake, I think the franchise as a whole has been pretty damn mediocre in the playoffs - and that includes Sloan's tenure. The Jazz is the 4th winningest team in NBA history and something like only 19th when it comes to playoff win percentage. If the team overperforms, it's almost always in that 4/5 match-up, which is about the weakest you can get in overperforming - but have underperformed, or laid some serious playoff stinkers, far more than they've ever gone out and shocked the NBA world as a strong underdog (in fact, I can't think of the last series the Jazz entered serious underdogs and pulled out a win).

This throws any and all context out the window.

Quin's performed well in the playoffs and only lost when they were the lower seed or had injuries.

They won against Clippers who were highly favoured. Like 3 or 4 journalist actually had Jazz as favourites and I may be generous. In the 2nd round, they played against dynasty warriors without George Hill and while Rudy Gobert was playing through an injury.

They won against as a lower seed against OKC who was again favoured to win but I think it was closer. Jazz were overmatched against Houston who was as likely to win it all as the dynasty warriors were that year.

The second Houston series, Quin took a risk and applied an unusual scheme that held a historically great offensive team to their worst 3 offensive outputs of the season in a row and Jazz created too many open looks, just couldn't make them. It was the team that let down Quin not the other way.

Against the nuggets. It's never a good look to lose while you are leading 3-1 but Jazz didn't have their 2nd best scorer who hit multiple clutch shots and won them games during the season while Nuggets got their best perimeter defender back. Nuggets also had the best player who is now the MVP.

Jazz adjusted a few times during the series but the perimeter defense was soft all season. They brought help from up top against Jokic. They put Gobert on Millsap to let him help. They let Jokic go against Gobert with no help and tried to drag help against Murray. But again, the jazz defense was soft all year, unlike this year. I think that series was a humbling experience for every perimeter defender on the team.

 

[Sean]

This throws any and all context out the window.

Quin's performed well in the playoffs and only lost when they were the lower seed or had injuries.

They won against Clippers who were highly favoured. Like 3 or 4 journalist actually had Jazz as favourites and I may be generous. In the 2nd round, they played against dynasty warriors without George Hill and while Rudy Gobert was playing through an injury.

They won against as a lower seed against OKC who was again favoured to win but I think it was closer. Jazz were overmatched against Houston who was as likely to win it all as the dynasty warriors were that year.

The second Houston series, Quin took a risk and applied an unusual scheme that held a historically great offensive team to their worst 3 offensive outputs of the season in a row and Jazz created too many open looks, just couldn't make them. It was the team that let down Quin not the other way.

Against the nuggets. It's never a good look to lose while you are leading 3-1 but Jazz didn't have their 2nd best scorer who hit multiple clutch shots and won them games during the season while Nuggets got their best perimeter defender back. Nuggets also had the best player who is now the MVP.

Jazz adjusted a few times during the series but the perimeter defense was soft all season. They brought help from up top against Jokic. They put Gobert on Millsap to let him help. They let Jokic go against Gobert with no help and tried to drag help against Murray. But again, the jazz defense was soft all year, unlike this year. I think that series was a humbling experience for every perimeter defender on the team.

You described beautify why he's a mediocre playoff coach right now and not a good playoff coach. Thank you. I don't think I could have done a better job explaining this and apologize for not being as concise as you were in your explanation because maybe it would have ended the discussion pretty early. But I am glad you chimed in here.

I think you perfectly state why Quin is a mediocre playoff coach by focusing on the LAC and OKC series because, as you suggested, the line between good-mediocre-bad could not be summed up better than focusing on these series. I attempted to explain why in one of my posts but didn't do as good of a job as you did. But just to reiterate that fantastic point you made: what makes Quin a mediocre playoff coach is summed up by a fairly logical question: had Snyder lost both series, would we consider him a mediocre playoff coach? Of course not. We'd likely consider him a bad playoff coach for reasons you state: the 4/5 match-up is, traditionally, a coin flip in the NBA playoffs (just in this year's playoffs alone, the 5 seed is up 2-1 on the 4 seed and in 2020, the 5 seed advanced in the EC, while it took seven games for the 4 seed to advance in the WC) and winning it isn't near the upset as a 6 over 3 or 7 over 2 or ... even more rare ... the 8 over 1.

When you factor in everything else, the blowout losses to the Warriors and Houston in the semifinals, the absolute decimation Utah saw at the hands of the Rockets in that 4/5 match-up in 2019, along with the 3-1 blown lead vs Denver last year, there's really no argument there to suggest Quin is a good playoff coach. He's not a bad one by any means. But as you and I have shown, he's pretty mediocre.

So case closed. We can agree that Quin is a mediocre playoff coach. You've outlined why. No reason hashing over this because this playoff run is going to change our perception regardless (whether you think Quin is a mediocre playoff coach like we do, or if you think, like a very small group, that he's somehow a good playoff coach) because if the Jazz lose to Memphis, the argument shifts from whether he's a mediocre playoff coach to a bad playoff coach. If the Jazz advance to the semifinals, and lose again, which has been their ceiling so far under Quin, I think the argument also again shifts from whether he's a mediocre playoff coach or a bad one (so, I guess we could come down on an agreement he's mediocre playoff coach with a loss in the semis, depending on how it goes down). But if he gets this team tot he WCF, which should be the expectation with Utah being the #1 seed, I will happily concede he's not a mediocre playoff coach. Full stop. Without question. I don't care if they get swept by the Lakers in the WCF - if he can get Utah to the WCF, I will readily admit he's a good playoff coach.

And that's all that needs to be said on this argument. Time to just start cheering for Utah. Go Jazz!

 

[Hekate]

You described beautify why he's a mediocre playoff coach right now and not a good playoff coach. Thank you. I don't think I could have done a better job explaining this and apologize for not being as concise as you were in your explanation because maybe it would have ended the discussion pretty early. But I am glad you chimed in here.

I think you perfectly state why Quin is a mediocre playoff coach by focusing on the LAC and OKC series because, as you suggested, the line between good-mediocre-bad could not be summed up better than focusing on these series. I attempted to explain why in one of my posts but didn't do as good of a job as you did. But just to reiterate that fantastic point you made: what makes Quin a mediocre playoff coach is summed up by a fairly logical question: had Snyder lost both series, would we consider him a mediocre playoff coach? Of course not. We'd likely consider him a bad playoff coach for reasons you state: the 4/5 match-up is, traditionally, a coin flip in the NBA playoffs (just in this year's playoffs alone, the 5 seed is up 2-1 on the 4 seed and in 2020, the 5 seed advanced in the EC, while it took seven games for the 4 seed to advance in the WC) and winning it isn't near the upset as a 6 over 3 or 7 over 2 or ... even more rare ... the 8 over 1.

When you factor in everything else, the blowout losses to the Warriors and Houston in the semifinals, the absolute decimation Utah saw at the hands of the Rockets in that 4/5 match-up in 2019, along with the 3-1 blown lead vs Denver last year, there's really no argument there to suggest Quin is a good playoff coach. He's not a bad one by any means. But as you and I have shown, he's pretty mediocre.

So case closed. We can agree that Quin is a mediocre playoff coach. You've outlined why. No reason hashing over this because this playoff run is going to change our perception regardless (whether you think Quin is a mediocre playoff coach like we do, or if you think, like a very small group, that he's somehow a good playoff coach) because if the Jazz lose to Memphis, the argument shifts from whether he's a mediocre playoff coach to a bad playoff coach. If the Jazz advance to the semifinals, and lose again, which has been their ceiling so far under Quin, I think the argument also again shifts from whether he's a mediocre playoff coach or a bad one (so, I guess we could come down on an agreement he's mediocre playoff coach with a loss in the semis, depending on how it goes down). But if he gets this team tot he WCF, which should be the expectation with Utah being the #1 seed, I will happily concede he's not a mediocre playoff coach. Full stop. Without question. I don't care if they get swept by the Lakers in the WCF - if he can get Utah to the WCF, I will readily admit he's a good playoff coach.

And that's all that needs to be said on this argument. Time to just start cheering for Utah. Go Jazz!

Quin won 2 series he wasn't favoured for. Great.

Quin lost again dynasty GSW minus his starting PG who was having career year. Ok.

A loss against dramatically bad matchup and easily favoured Houston team. Ok.

A loss against the same Hou team but
Quin prepared a scheme that made possible for Jazz to win but the players couldn't hit wide open shots. Good.

3-1 loss against Denver who had the MVP and their perimeter defender came back while Jazz didn't have their second offensive option. Kinda bad.

It doesn't average out to mediocre even if you just think result based. Quin makes subtle adjustments every series and most of the time is step ahead of his opposition even if he doesn't always have the necessary players.


But then who is a good playoff coach for you recently and who is great?

 

[Sean]

Quin won 2 series he wasn't favoured for. Great.

Quin lost again dynasty GSW minus his starting PG who was having career year. Ok.

A loss against dramatically bad matchup and easily favoured Houston team. Ok.

A loss against the same Hou team but
Quin prepared a scheme that made possible for Jazz to win but the players couldn't hit wide open shots. Good.

3-1 loss against Denver who had the MVP and their perimeter defender came back while Jazz didn't have their second offensive option. Kinda bad.

It doesn't average out to mediocre even if you just think result based. Quin makes subtle adjustments every series and most of the time is step ahead of his opposition even if he doesn't always have the necessary players.


But then who is a good playoff coach for you recently and who is great?

A good playoff coach? Someone like Jerry Sloan or Rick Adelman or even Mike D'Antoni - guys who haven't won it all but have consistently fielded some very strong playoff teams that got beyond the second round on multiple occasions (as well as made the NBA Finals). Sloan coached the Jazz to six Western Conference Finals and two NBA Finals. Adelman coached the Blazers/Kings to four Western Conference Finals and made the NBA Finals twice with Portland. Mike D'Antoni, who hasn't made a NBA Finals, still managed to coach Phoenix and Houston to the Western Conference Finals three times in his career.

Now those are just what I would call good playoff coaches - not great. Great, obviously, is for someone like Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley. A very select group of coaches who've won multiple NBA titles over their career - and with Jackson and Riley doing so with two different franchises.

I already listed out who I felt was a mediocre playoff coach - someone like Dwane Casey, though even he has a trip to the Eastern Conference Finals. Still, on the whole, I think his playoff resume is very similar to that of Snyder ... or at least, his time with the Raptors.

But I'm not going to fall over myself praising Snyder for winning the 4/5 match-up when, historically, it's the one match-up where the lower seed legit wins a lot of the time. Since 2010, here's every 5 over 4 'upset' in the playoffs:

2010: Utah (5) over Denver (4)
2011: Atlanta (5) over Orlando (4)
2012: Clippers (5) over Memphis (4)
2013: Chicago (5) over Brooklyn (4), Memphis (5) over Clippers (4)
2014: Washington (5) over Chicago (4), Portland (5) over Houston (4)
2015: Washington (5) over Toronto (4), Memphis (5) over Portland (4)
2016: Portland (5) over the Clippers (4)
2017: Utah (5) over the Clippers (4)
2018: Utah (5) over Oklahoma City (4)
2019: None
2020: Miami (5) over Indiana (4)
2021: Dallas (5) tied with Clippers (4), Atlanta (5) lead 3-1 over Kew York (4)

So, 11 of 12 seasons a five seed upset a 4 seed in the playoffs. Some these were due to the five seed actually having home court - but a lot of the time, the upset happened without the team having home court. Total, 13 series saw the five-seed advanced to the second round. That is out of 22 series total. That means, since 2010, the five-seed actually wins the series nearly 60% of the time compared to the four-seed. That isn't counting this year's playoffs, where the five-seed is either tied with the four-seed or up on the four-seed.

My point? If your high mark in the playoffs as a coach is winning a first-round series that has historically been won by your seed anyway, I'm not going to give you a great deal of brownie points for it. They were good wins. But they were also wins that happened three and four years ago. They're wins that ended in completely non-competitive (for the most part) semifinal series. They're wins that, a season or two later, were followed up with a bad first-round loss and a 3-1 blown lead.

All that pretty much paints a picture of a mediocre playoff resume. It's not bad, which I think you somehow think I'm saying. But no, I'm not going to suggest Quin's playoff resume is good.

But I as I've said a few times already, my view will clearly change this playoff. If the Jazz go out and make the WCF, I will readily concede his resume has improved and we should bump him up to good. But a good playoff resume has to be more than just a couple first-round wins and then a few non-competitive series. Maybe if the Jazz had put up more of a fight against the Rockets either year they lost to them, or they didn't blow that 3-1 series lead while leading by 15 points midway through the third quarter in a closeout game for them, I would be inclined to give him a 'good' mark there. But they didn't. So, why would i? It just seems so unearned. To me, being good at something means you're consistently achieving a level of success that puts you on a different level than most your peers. Well, if we consider Quin's playoff resume good, what would we consider mediocre? Nate McMillan? Frankly, I consider his playoff resume pretty bad - this year not withstanding. Why? Because the dude has made the playoffs nine times and only advanced beyond the first round once. In that context, using McMillan as a template, ranking Quin as mediocre makes sense.

Really, tho, this is an ever evolving situation. Only a select few coaches can attain, and sustain, greatness. Everything else is a shuffle. Pop is not likely to ever lose that greatness status. But someone like Rick Carlisle? A decade ago, I would have put him as a great playoff coach. After all, he had just won a NBA title with the Mavs and had consistent success at Detroit and Indiana before that, taking both teams to the Conference Finals once each. He went from 'good' playoff coach with the Pistons and Pacers to 'great' playoff coach with the Mavs after the 2011 season and their title.

But now? No. I wouldn't consider him a great playoff coach. Since that 2011 season, the Mavs have failed to make it past the first-round once (and likely won't again this year). Still, I cannot justify putting Quin Snyder among Carlisle, a guy who's coached three conference finals, one NBA Finals and owns a championship. Not yet, anyway. And I think that's reasonable. Brad Stevens is another coach I'd consider a good playoff coach, but again, he's got three appearances to the Eastern Conference Finals. How can I reason putting Snyder among a coach like that, a guy who's failed to get beyond the semifinals yet - and is 1-8 in semifinal games total?

I can't. I won't. Not yet, anyway. But a run this postseason can absolutely change that. It's that simple.

 

[The Thriller]

Yall think we’re gonna win 2 straight in memohis? It’s possible. Just not probable. This is going to go 6-7 games

Oof