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Game Thread Oct 10, 2023 08:00PM MT: Jazz at Clippers (Preseason)

Added to Calendar: 10-10-23

THT/JC shoud start. Definitly. Sexton as a 6TH men befotre a trade. Just not sure Collins is a starter in a good team. But we are not that good so it may be okay. Will start KO instead.
 
I'm sure I'll get a thumbs down but John Collins is about the worst offensive fit they could've brought in to play next to Kessler.

I get that Collins basically cost them nothing but cap space and Ainge is collecting assets. With that said Walker is a supposed franchise pillar on this team moving forward and bringing in Collins is just going to hamper his development this season. Kessler can't be himself while he and Collins are stepping all over each others' feet and I don't see any way to fix it unless KO is the starter.

Also Sexton looks to be thinking way too much out there. Just put him in his natural scorer role as the 6th man. Ainge will obviously be moving at least one of these guards by the deadline when I assume Keyonte and Ochai will be the eventual starters.
 
HeatCheck said:
I'm sure I'll get a thumbs down but John Collins is about the worst offensive fit they could've brought in to play next to Kessler.

I get that Collins basically cost them nothing but cap space and Ainge is collecting assets. With that said Walker is a supposed franchise pillar on this team moving forward and bringing in Collins is just going to hamper his development this season. Kessler can't be himself while he and Collins are stepping all over each others' feet and I don't see any way to fix it unless KO is the starter.

Also Sexton looks to be thinking way too much out there. Just put him in his natural scorer role as the 6th man. Ainge will obviously be moving at least one of these guards by the deadline when I assume Keyonte and Ochai will be the eventual starters.
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Please elaborate why. His 3P shot looks to be in form and he obviously played on the perimeter all day in this game. I cant remember Collins doing any PnR either. Only 1 post up that I can remember where he actually passed the ball to Kessler for a corner 3.

He plays like a 3&D guy and gets his touches on the perimeter. My only concern is the driving they want him to do, which hasnt been super pretty thus far. He had a few nice plays but like twice as many fumbles/errant plays as well.

In fact, just to verify I went to count all his offensive possessions for first quarter (didnt bother with the whole game, since the trend was pretty clear):
12 offensive possessions not touching the paint at all (only 1 time touching the ball inside the 3P line, which was the post up mentioned above)
1 drive to empty paint (missed tough layup)
1 time crashing the glass from the weak side for offensive rebound after Lauri 3P shot
 
I think sexton should just go back at 6th man and just let tht/keyonte/Dunn fight for the spot although I still think Dunn will anchor the 2nd unit. Sexton might be just who he is- a young bull.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Are we the worst dribbling team in the NBA? Woof, our offense was rough when the Clippers were playing their starters.
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This is likely close to the truth and one of the biggest issues I see. The passing I'm not as worried about as some are, but this is a legit concern for me as well.
 
I wanted to give Sexton the benefit of the doubt but at some point Hardy gotta call off the PG experiment. Last season I definitely felt like he took a few small steps forward, but so far these preseason games have looked like no further progress has been made.

Letting him play his ball or trading him are starting to look like the best options here.
 
HermanG said:
Please elaborate why. His 3P shot looks to be in form and he obviously played on the perimeter all day in this game. I cant remember Collins doing any PnR either. Only 1 post up that I can remember where he actually passed the ball to Kessler for a corner 3.

He plays like a 3&D guy and gets his touches on the perimeter. My only concern is the driving they want him to do, which hasnt been super pretty thus far. He had a few nice plays but like twice as many fumbles/errant plays as well.

In fact, just to verify I went to count all his offensive possessions for first quarter (didnt bother with the whole game, since the trend was pretty clear):
12 offensive possessions not touching the paint at all (only 1 time touching the ball inside the 3P line, which was the post up mentioned above)
1 drive to empty paint (missed tough layup)
1 time crashing the glass from the weak side for offensive rebound after Lauri 3P shot
Click to expand...
Because people are pessimistic and need to blame Collins without actually giving it a proper chance
 
I didnt realize how much of a flopper kahwi is.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Hardy: we are going to experiment a bunch early and probably wont have a rotation figured out through like the first 20 games of the regular season.

Jazzfanz after 2 pre season games against one opponent in seattle and hawaii: we know everything about this team and the lineups are currently set in stone.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Btw if we want to overreact to our so far sloppy offense, then we probably also should overreact to our much improved defense.
  • Clippers averaged around 39% from the field and 28% from the 3P in both games. We were worse from deep, but I would argue we had better looks on average and they had to throw more with a hand in their face.
  • Counting both games Kawhi + PG combined for 38 points in 36 shots. We gave them a total of 4 FT combined (0 to PG, 4 to Kawhi). Both recording around 34 total minutes.
Even though they weren't going full steam and let Hyland and others cook more than they normally would, thats still a pretty good look.
 
fishonjazz said:
Hardy: we are going to experiment a bunch early and probably wont have a rotation figured out through like the first 20 games of the regular season.

Jazzfanz after 2 pre season games against one opponent in seattle and hawaii: we know everything about this team and the lineups are currently set in stone.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...
I think we know some stuff, and I think Hardy does too. The Sexton/THT stuff isn't new. We know the strengths and weaknesses of both players from last year.

Sexton just isn't a starter. It's not that he is lnt starter quality, but his game just isn't suited to be a starter. I don't see much a point in trying to develop him in that role. He is what he is and if we try to change that we are going to get a worse player.

None of our players are good enough to be a starting PG for how Hardy wants to play. If we want a ball movement oriented offense we need someone who can more reliably get the flow going.

THT is a great passer, great one on one driver, and can get guys easy shots, but he isn't a reliable half court creator. I think he has shown improvement so far, but he's probably better next to a PG or as a bench guy.

Dunn just isn't good enough offensively. You cant be a passive playmaker at the starting level in the NBA. It was infuriating watching him dribble out of wide open corner 3s last night. You just can't have of you want a ball movement offense. Passing up wide open shots s the worst spacing killer. I love him as a backup or 3rd guard. Definitely a keeper if he's OK with that role.

Keyonte can't be a starting PG currently, but maybe he has to be. I think next to THT he could be interesting, but I feel like we would lose a ton of games early if we go that route. But if he could learn quickly it may be the best option.
 
HermanG said:
Btw if we want to overreact to our so far sloppy offense, then we probably also should overreact to our much improved defense.
  • Clippers averaged around 39% from the field and 28% from the 3P in both games. We were worse from deep, but I would argue we had better looks on average and they had to throw more with a hand in their face.
  • Counting both games Kawhi + PG combined for 38 points in 36 shots. We gave them a total of 4 FT combined (0 to PG, 4 to Kawhi). Both recording around 34 total minutes.
Even though they weren't going full steam and let Hyland and others cook more than they normally would, thats still a pretty good look.
Click to expand...
There some decent numbers of mishaps, miscommunications and bad individual defense, but it didn't felt our defense was the problem as a team, that what hurt it the most (as a team) was the turnovers and large periods of bad offense (outside of transition being great for opposite teams, being unable to get points and immediately being scored on the other end on a regular basis will deflate any team, at any sport, at any place, league, culture, etc, regardless of individual and collective work ethic), tho boxing out could be better at times.

Last night it felt like we could have better luck with some of our shots, but also felt that the luck with our shots (or Clippers) was going along execution on both ends (which isn't that much the case normally).
 
rjfan said:
There some decent numbers of mishaps, miscommunications and bad individual defense, but it didn't felt our defense was the problem as a team, that what hurt it the most (as a team) was the turnovers and large periods of bad offense (outside of transition being great for opposite teams, being unable to get points and immediately being scored on the other end on a regular basis will deflate any team, at any sport, at any place, league, culture, etc, regardless of individual and collective work ethic), tho boxing out could be better at times.

Last night it felt like we could have better luck with some of our shots, but also felt that the luck with our shots (or Clippers) was going along execution on both ends (which isn't that much the case normally).
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It definitely looks like the offense is gonna be a work in progress and as Hardy mentioned its likely gonna take 20 games to even stabilize the guard rotations.

However Lauri has also looked rusty much like he did in the early FIBA and NT exhibition games. If he finds his rhythm I have much more confidence that we can overcome the guard shuffle and still have a decent record after the dust settles.
 
rjfan said:
There some decent numbers of mishaps, miscommunications and bad individual defense, but it didn't felt our defense was the problem as a team, that what hurt it the most (as a team) was the turnovers and large periods of bad offense (outside of transition being great for opposite teams, being unable to get points and immediately being scored on the other end on a regular basis will deflate any team, at any sport, at any place, league, culture, etc, regardless of individual and collective work ethic), tho boxing out could be better at times.

Last night it felt like we could have better luck with some of our shots, but also felt that the luck with our shots (or Clippers) was going along execution on both ends (which isn't that much the case normally).
Click to expand...
Agreed. To me the biggest issues I saw was turnovers and bricks (poor shooting).

Checking box score and the turnovers weren't really that bad (16 turnovers) but the shooting was pretty bad. (40 from the field and 23.1 from 3. Ouch)
 
In the starting lineup THT had 7 assists. Lauri, sexton, collins, and kessler combined for 0 assists.
 
HermanG said:
Please elaborate why. His 3P shot looks to be in form and he obviously played on the perimeter all day in this game. I cant remember Collins doing any PnR either. Only 1 post up that I can remember where he actually passed the ball to Kessler for a corner 3.

He plays like a 3&D guy and gets his touches on the perimeter. My only concern is the driving they want him to do, which hasnt been super pretty thus far. He had a few nice plays but like twice as many fumbles/errant plays as well.

In fact, just to verify I went to count all his offensive possessions for first quarter (didnt bother with the whole game, since the trend was pretty clear):
12 offensive possessions not touching the paint at all (only 1 time touching the ball inside the 3P line, which was the post up mentioned above)
1 drive to empty paint (missed tough layup)
1 time crashing the glass from the weak side for offensive rebound after Lauri 3P shot
Click to expand...
I'm running out the door right now but here are a few small concerning facts:

1. He complained about his role in Atlanta sitting in the corner

2. Despite trying for several seasons they were never able to incorporate Collins in a lineup with either Okongwu or Capela. They even brought in Dejounte Murray to help run the offense but Collins still didn't fit. He did have a wrecked finger last season so will give him a small pass but Atlanta was a better team when Collins was off the floor.

3. Right now I would say it will take more than 2 preseason games to say whether he fits next to Kessler when there are 3 full seasons of empirical evidence from his Atlanta days pointing to the exact opposite.
 
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