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Game Thread Oct 28, 2023 08:00PM MT: Jazz at Suns

Added to Calendar: 10-28-23

This team has the look of a team that will miss the playoffs but be too good to keep the pick this year. We should be tanking. We need to trade JC and THT for a pickle. Trade John Collins. He’s decent but not for what we are paying him. Simply put this team is poorly constructed and not enough top talent. Yes, we may have to sacrifice a couple/few years of Lauri Markkanen, but if we don’t we will wast all of Markkanen’s time here to a point it would just be better to trade him. The jazz did basically everything I didn’t want to see happen. They should’ve traded everyone not named Kessler and Markkanen and Ochai. Conley also should’ve been traded last off-season as well we never should’ve started 10-3 last year. If not we could’ve potentially drafted a Thompson or dare I say Victor Wembanyama and still gotten Keyontae George. It could’ve been a generational franchise changing draft.

So now the jazz just need to stick their pride in their back pocket and lose every game possible. Get Hendricks and Brice Sensabaugh in the rotation and build for the future. This is where I’m at. I see no avenue to get markedly better trying to win games right now. We aren’t winning anything with Markkanen and a bunch of decent to average players. I’ve been r waiting for a true contender since the late 90’s we’ve come close a few times but because this team takes a shortcut every time during the rebuilding period we fall short of the mark. What’s the point of even having Markkanen when we have guards like THT JC and Sexton who play a lot of the same minutes. It reduces what Markkanen can do. Case in point two out of the first three games he’s failed to score 20 points because the guards are the focal point of this offense and most of the time they are winging it and playing off script just trying to score. There’s no offensive flow. This is why Key and Ochai should be starting and THT and JC should be traded and Sexton coming off the bench. We need Markkanen to be the focal point and in two of the three games he hasn’t. Yes, Ochai isn’t a ball handler, but having two or three guys that play with the ball in hand is killing us and Markkanen’s effectiveness in this offense. We don’t need Ochai to be a ball handler. Let Key do that. He seems to know where to direct the offense. We were much better with him running the show. Just think how much better the offense and Markkanen will be if Key isn’t sharing the ball handling duties with the likes of JC, THT, and Sexton out there with them. We may start to get tons of wide open threes again.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
Another guy who's been disappointing is Agbaji. Guys who can't handle and create by the time they get to the NBA seldom acquire that skill after they get there.
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Yeah that's a real flaw but I do think he has Danny Green type potential which probably still isn't a starter in today's league where even bigs are expected to be able to create and handle a little bit (except on the Jazz where KO is the only big dude with any playmaking ability).

IOW the Jazz still need to draft a big, playmaking wing.
 
sip said:
We are definitely better off conveying the pick later because we currently have a talent void. We need better high upside young talent and that is most likely coming through the draft for us. Also the best part about going full youth movement is that we actually get to the potential of our young guys. Having a better idea of what George, Ochai, Kessler, Hendricks and Sensabaugh can do will help us figure out how to tweak the roster and what type of players we should be targeting.
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You make very good points
 
HeatCheck said:
My memory is foggy but do recall back before the Warriors became a juggernaut they owed a top 8 pick to some team. They were just bad enough to keep the pick to draft Barnes and Green(2nd round) in that draft. The next season the pick did convey but it was like late teens/early 20's by that point.

I think worst case scenario would be to convey a pick in the 11-12 range to OKC who already has more young talent than the Jazz. I'd rather keep the '24 pick if at all possible and convey the pick in '25 esp since Jazz already have 2 FRP's in that draft anyway. Assuming Keyonte keeps improving this team can potentially rise quickly especially if they can find a stud in the top 5 of the next draft.
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I’m not faulting your logic but if that’s the case we might as well trade Laurie for picks and younger assets now. They call Porzingis a unicorn but Laurie is better - more complete. He’s hitting his prime now and there’s no guarantee that he won’t sustain a career altering injury leading our Tank patrol. We’re doing this kid a grave disservice if we don’t start building around him immediately and compete now.
 
HeatCheck said:
My memory is foggy but do recall back before the Warriors became a juggernaut they owed a top 8 pick to some team. They were just bad enough to keep the pick to draft Barnes and Green(2nd round) in that draft. The next season the pick did convey but it was like late teens/early 20's by that point.

I think worst case scenario would be to convey a pick in the 11-12 range to OKC who already has more young talent than the Jazz. I'd rather keep the '24 pick if at all possible and convey the pick in '25 esp since Jazz already have 2 FRP's in that draft anyway. Assuming Keyonte keeps improving this team can potentially rise quickly especially if they can find a stud in the top 5 of the next draft.
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Sadly we could try to keep our pick this year and still have to give it to okc this year. Bottom line is that I liked game 2 of this season way more than games 1 and 3 so Im hoping for lots more games like game 2 this season. Life is short and i like happiness.
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
This team has the look of a team that will miss the playoffs but be too good to keep the pick this year. We should be tanking. We need to trade JC and THT for a pickle. Trade John Collins. He’s decent but not for what we are paying him. Simply put this team is poorly constructed and not enough top talent. Yes, we may have to sacrifice a couple/few years of Lauri Markkanen, but if we don’t we will wast all of Markkanen’s time here to a point it would just be better to trade him. The jazz did basically everything I didn’t want to see happen. They should’ve traded everyone not named Kessler and Markkanen and Ochai. Conley also should’ve been traded last off-season as well we never should’ve started 10-3 last year. If not we could’ve potentially drafted a Thompson or dare I say Victor Wembanyama and still gotten Keyontae George. It could’ve been a generational franchise changing draft.

So now the jazz just need to stick their pride in their back pocket and lose every game possible. Get Hendricks and Brice Sensabaugh in the rotation and build for the future. This is where I’m at. I see no avenue to get markedly better trying to win games right now. We aren’t winning anything with Markkanen and a bunch of decent to average players. I’ve been r waiting for a true contender since the late 90’s we’ve come close a few times but because this team takes a shortcut every time during the rebuilding period we fall short of the mark. What’s the point of even having Markkanen when we have guards like THT JC and Sexton who play a lot of the same minutes. It reduces what Markkanen can do. Case in point two out of the first three games he’s failed to score 20 points because the guards are the focal point of this offense and most of the time they are winging it and playing off script just trying to score. There’s no offensive flow. This is why Key and Ochai should be starting and THT and JC should be traded and Sexton coming off the bench. We need Markkanen to be the focal point and in two of the three games he hasn’t. Yes, Ochai isn’t a ball handler, but having two or three guys that play with the ball in hand is killing us and Markkanen’s effectiveness in this offense. We don’t need Ochai to be a ball handler. Let Key do that. He seems to know where to direct the offense. We were much better with him running the show. Just think how much better the offense and Markkanen will be if Key isn’t sharing the ball handling duties with the likes of JC, THT, and Sexton out there with them. We may start to get tons of wide open threes again.
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Yes. Keyonte and Ochai need to be starting by the deadline. Agbaji might not have much ballhandling acumen but he's probably the best fit next to Key on the current roster until they draft a big playmaking type wing. Teams will at least need to respect the fact Ochai can shoot the open 3. The team will probably take it's lumps but I'd rather go with the young kids over the likes of JC and THT.

They need to clear out at least 2 of these guards. Maybe in January send JC to be 6th man on a contender and ship out THT as some sort of salary ballast because I doubt he has any value. Sexton isn't a PG and just needs to be a 6th man microwave scorer off the bench. In the limited minutes I've been able to watch, Dunn has been a real disappointment. Maybe it's the elevated expectations this season compared to the end of last season when they were trying to tank.
 
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Release the Kraken said:
I’m not faulting your logic but if that’s the case we might as well trade Laurie for picks and younger assets now. They call Porzingis a unicorn but Laurie is better - more complete. He’s hitting his prime now and there’s no guarantee that he won’t sustain a career altering injury leading our Tank patrol. We’re doing this kid a grave disservice if we don’t start building around him immediately and compete now.
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Agreed on Lauri. In my opinion he's really looking like the 2nd coming of a Pau Gasol type which the Grizzlies were never able to build around. They were just too good with him to tank. Memphis wasn't a FA destination and eventually traded him to the Lakers.

I do wonder how else they are going to more talent to this team. Adding a blue chipper from the next draft such as Justin Edwards would be one way to add talent. Making more trades around the margins like they did to acquire Collins although I don't see him as a top 3 player on a championship team. I think they need a big ballhandling 2 way wing to play next to Lauri, Keyonte, Kessler. For a team like Utah those types are almost impossible to find except through the draft.
 
HeatCheck said:
Yes. Keyonte and Ochai need to be starting by the deadline. Agbaji might not have much ballhandling acumen but he's probably the best fit next to Key on the current roster until they draft a big playmaking type wing. Teams will at least need to respect the fact Ochai can shoot the open 3. The team will probably take it's lumps but I'd rather go with the young kids over the likes of JC and THT.

They need to clear out at least 2 of these guards. Maybe in January send JC to be 6th man on a contender and ship out THT as some sort of salary ballast because I doubt he has any value. Sexton isn't a PG and just needs to be a 6th man microwave scorer off the bench. In the limited minutes I've been able to watch, Dunn has been a real disappointment. Maybe it's the elevated expectations this season compared to the end of last season when they were trying to tank.
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Im starting to have a bit of concern about whether Ochai has the 3 in 3 and D. last season he didn't take high volume threes and most i remember were catch and shoot mostly open ones and he shot 35%. Not bad but not all that good. He is at 20% so far this season.
His three point percentage in college was pretty good at least. 37.4% for his career and 41% his senior year. Hopefully he IS a good three point shooter. His defense is looking quite good this season in his limited minutes at least.
 
HeatCheck said:
Agreed on Lauri. In my opinion he's really looking like the 2nd coming of a Pau Gasol type which the Grizzlies were never able to build around. They were just too good with him to tank. Memphis wasn't a FA destination and eventually traded him to the Lakers.

I do wonder how else they are going to more talent to this team. Adding a blue chipper from the next draft such as Justin Edwards would be one way to add talent. Making more trades around the margins like they did to acquire Collins although I don't see him as a top 3 player on a championship team. I think they need a big ballhandling 2 way wing to play next to Lauri, Keyonte, Kessler. For a team like Utah those types are almost impossible to find except through the draft.
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That two way guard you’re describing sounds a lot like Brogdon to me. The Sexton/THT and a low first for Brogdon is a deal we should have done right from the start. I like Sexton and I like THT as charismatic locker room guys but damn they have some really ingrained deficiencies that won’t change easily.

Then, for me at least it comes down to Hardy cause his sets and rotations need to be seriously reevaluated. This small ball second unit might work against a Clippers team that also likes to go small but it was a disaster last night and will continue to be against teams with low post skills and penetration. Hardy has not been using Samanic and Yurtseven at all and they are the only guys on the current roster with post skills imo. This perimeter headless chicken routine has got to stop.
 
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As big a deuce as that showing was, I thought Keyonte looked real nice. He's very active on both ends, always trying to make plays. His vision is better than expected, and his shot is smooth as butter.
 
Fosto said:
As big a deuce as that showing was, I thought Keyonte looked real nice. He's very active on both ends, always trying to make plays. His vision is better than expected, and his shot is smooth as butter.
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Ya I have been hesitant to totally buy in to keyonte being pg of the future, much less pg of the present, but he has looked every bit the part. Its time to hand it to him and see what happens. Cant be much worse than tht has been.
 
Release the Kraken said:
Well it was our third game on the second night of a B2B, on the road against ostensibly the toughest team in the west so I wasn’t expecting much. Maybe buoyed up by the absence of Booker and Beale though I was expecting a little bit better than what we got. After a pretty solid unified effort on Friday, wow did we ever look ragged in this one. Was Laurie basically the only guy that showed up?

Fighting the urge to point fingers until I have a better sample size at this point.
This is been a test of the emergency broadcasting system. We now return you to your regular scheduled programming.
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When Lauri touched the ball generally good things happened. But the problem was the guard corp decided it was their game, instead of a game they wanted to win.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
John Collins is now 3/11 on 3PAs this season (27%). It's early, but the Jazz may have found a replacement for Rudy Gay.
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Trash analysis based on 3 games where he has been one of our best players overall. Hasnt even missed a shot badly as far as I can remember.

Many in here are clearly hoping for him to fail so they get to say "I knew it". Disgusting.
 
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