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Passing skills: achilles heel

S

silesian

Well-Known Member
2022 Prediction Contest Winner
I'm concerned about whether we have enough passing skills and talent for the Jazz to become contenders. Great teams have an array of good to great passers (Spurs, Warriors). The 1997 Jazz had 4 players (Stock, Horny, Malone, Eisley) who were superior passers to anyone on the current Jazz roster. Our ball movement is full of empty passes. How often have you said something like "he threaded the needle there" or "I didn't even notice he was open" or just "wow, what a nice pass"? Many of our fast breaks have mistimed passes, unnecessary passes, should-have-passed-that passes, etc. They are often painful to watch.

Is Quin playing late game pick-and-roll-switch-to-iso ball to compensate for passing inadequacy? Our scant assist numbers are probably slanted towards passes to an open 3 point shooter. But are we missing tougher assists to get shots at the rim?

Is this a young team that will naturally evolve in this area? Does Dante help to rectify? Does Lyles evolve into a very good passer? How heavily should the Jazz weigh passing skills when considering future personnel moves?

I'm concerned about this and wanted to ask the board their thoughts.
 
Definitely feels at times like quin has a tight leash on what passes are to be made. It often feels like they robotically run the weave screen thing up top then when the shotclock hits 8ish,they wake up and start trying to make a play. This happens continually through the game.

It still seems to the tv viewer that there is not a lot of complexity or variety to the offensive sets.
 
Lyles and Exum look like players who will help improve the whole team. Rudy will be above average for a center. Favors has gotten better. Hayward and Hood are solid.

The Spurs and the Warriors are excellent passing teams partly because they have spacing that we don't.
 
Dante has good chemistry with Rudy and Burks and Burke had good chemistry earlier this year..

Ingles roster spot must continue to be a good passer, incase Hayward were to get injured..


Thats why I like the idea of drafting Timothe Luwawu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msd4OQimjDI

6:23 is where they start to detail his passing..

averaged 2.75 assists for Mega Vizura this season.
 
NAOS said:
Lyles and Exum look like players who will help improve the whole team. Rudy will be above average for a center. Favors has gotten better. Hayward and Hood are solid.

The Spurs and the Warriors are excellent passing teams partly because they have spacing that we don't.
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Gobert will be above average? Jesus, the board's crowning of Rudy is ****ing absurd. He averages 1.5 assists per game. That's impressive and leads you to believe he will be above average? While he has skills, I'll give you that, his assist numbers will never be above average imo (other than perhaps very marginally) because he can't do **** in the post offensively in order to draw a double or triple team and have guys wide open who he can dish to like Hakeem and Shaq. The Rudy lovefest needs to ****ing stop.
 
I agree with the OP and some other people though. Our passes oftentimes seem empty. Most importantly to me, they are never quick and crisp enough either along the perimeter or in any kind of a high-low situation.
 
Cunning Linguist said:
Gobert will be above average? Jesus, the board's crowning of Rudy is ****ing absurd. He averages 1.5 assists per game. That's impressive and leads you to believe he will be above average? While he has skills, I'll give you that, his assist numbers will never be above average imo (other than perhaps very marginally) because he can't do **** in the post offensively in order to draw a double or triple team and have guys wide open who he can dish to like Hakeem and Shaq. The Rudy lovefest needs to ****ing stop.
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Did you read the "center" part? What's got you huffing so hard this morning?
 
NAOS said:
did you see the "will be" part of my post? As in "Rudy will be above average for a center"?

How closely do you need to be guided?
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So you're basing "will be" off of what, genius? The fact that he has a whopping 1.5 assists per game (Fat Al had 1.3 in his third year) or the fact that he has and won't have any offensive low post game of which to speak?
 
Cunning Linguist said:
So you're basing "will be" off of what, genius? The fact that he has a whopping 1.5 assists per game (Fat Al had 1.3 in his third year) or the fact that he has and won't have any offensive low post game of which to speak?
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Through all of your different incarnations one thing always stays the same: you're definitely a guy full of hip knowledge and takes about the team; you don't fall for the group-think around here because you're above group-think; you figured out a long time ago that individuation is what gets you ahead in the rep game.

The problem is that you're really just part of the drone about Rudy. Right now the drone is talking about how Rudy is holding back our offense. There's truth to that, but his impact is definitely over-stated. I don't know what the advanced stats for the last 30 games say, but before that our offense was better with him on the floor. The next stupid line of thought coming from drone ties back to its unstated theory about the process of improve at a game. Y'all seem to have some flat, dumb ideas about stuff. Sometimes a player busts above a plateau he'd been on for a while because a new skill opens up 6 or 7 other previous skills because this new skill provides just one new way to impact the game. To this point, I'd say that Rudy's passing is coming along quite nicely, and the very moment he adds a good move or two (which I believe he will), then his impact via passing will blossom.

So, the next question for you is will you let me be a fan of Rudy's offense still? Or will you be the loudest part of the drone that tells me I'm being naive?

Here's something you should read really carefully: I'm going to continue to be a fan of Rudy and believe in his progress regardless of what you say. For a while, probably. He's just finishing his first year as a full-time starter, and he was seriously injured at the midpoint. He's young. He's driven. He's in the top-3 best defenders in the league.
 
NAOS said:
Through all of your different incarnations one thing always stays the same: you're definitely a guy full of hip knowledge and takes about the team; you don't fall for the group-think around here because you're above group-think; you figured out a long time ago that individuation is what gets you ahead in the rep game.

The problem is that you're really just part of the drone about Rudy. Right now the drone is talking about how Rudy is holding back our offense. There's truth to that, but his impact is definitely over-stated. I don't know what the advanced stats for the last 30 games say, but before that our offense was better with him on the floor. The next stupid line of thought coming from drone ties back to it's unstated theory about what it is to improve at a game. But sometimes a player busts above a plateau he'd been on for a while because a new skill opens up 6 or 7 other previous skills because this new skill provides just one new way to impact the game. To this point, I'd say that Rudy's passing is coming along quite nicely, and the very moment he adds a good move or two (which I believe he will), then his impact via passing will blossom.

So, the next question for you is will you let me be a fan of Rudy's offense still? Or will you be the loudest part of the drone that tells me I'm being naive?

Here's something you should read really carefully: I'm going to continue to be a fan of Rudy and believe in his progress regardless of what you say. For a while, probably. He's just finishing his first year as a full-time starter, and he was seriously injured at the midpoint. He's young. He's driven. He's in the top-3 best defenders in the league.
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Huh?
 
I think Exum definitely will help our overall assist numbers and the number of "he threaded the needle there" or "I didn't even notice he was open" or just "wow, what a nice pass" passes.

Also, the other reason our assist numbers are terrible is that Snyder doesn't try to make Favors the focal point of the offense. Favors' game is ideal for pick n roll (he consistently hits the 15-17 footer and he finishes strong at the basket) but yet we rarely run it successfully. Hayward is our primary ball handler but he's sucks at setting up and running the PNR (always ends up driving to the basket himself or making an "empty" pass to a guarded teammate). If we weren't so committed towards making Hayward our "featured" player we would probably be a lot better. I know Jerry Sloan would use Favors more if he were coaching this team.
 
As others have stated, Lyles is definitely competent. Rudy has even shown some great passes (especially when a player trailers toward the hoop).

Hood has racked up assists and will no doubt continue to work on it. Hayward is solid.

Exum has the potential.

I think part of the blame relies in the actual offense on the players without the ball moving and not just standing there doing nothing.
 
kabenac said:
I think part of the blame relies in the actual offense on the players without the ball moving and not just standing there doing nothing.
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Or at least moving with purpose. I think Hayward moves well withoutout the ball, others not so much. This is where guys like Horny and Doug Collins were exceptional. (Dated myself with the Collins comment)
 
I think the Jazz are a team filled with relatively good passers tbh. The bigger problem might be the lack of scoring threats and guys that can consistently put the defense at a disadvantage. If a lot of the dudes were better scorers, shooters, and finishers it'd really bump up the APG, obviously.
 
LazyD said:
I think the Jazz are a team filled with relatively good passers tbh. The bigger problem might be the lack of scoring threats and guys that can consistently put the defense at a disadvantage. If a lot of the dudes were better scorers, shooters, and finishers it'd really bump up the APG, obviously.
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Hayward, Hood and Favors can each go for 20 on any night Lyles can go for 15 on any night. Ideally, we'd like to see Exum and Gobert average around 12.5 each next year so they too seem like guys who could go for 15 on any night. Maybe add in one draftee or vet who too can be a solid option.
 
Cunning Linguist said:
Gobert will be above average? Jesus, the board's crowning of Rudy is ****ing absurd. He averages 1.5 assists per game. That's impressive and leads you to believe he will be above average? While he has skills, I'll give you that, his assist numbers will never be above average imo (other than perhaps very marginally) because he can't do **** in the post offensively in order to draw a double or triple team and have guys wide open who he can dish to like Hakeem and Shaq. The Rudy lovefest needs to ****ing stop.
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1.5 APG puts Rudy at 16th overall for centers, so he is right on the verge of being above average for centers.

Most years 2.0 apg puts you in the top 10.
 
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