orangello
Well-Known Member
I don't care if you disagree with me. Go ahead and fill all of that in for yourself. It helped me to see who I would rather have.
Please take a side! Next PG for the Jazz out of the 2012 draft.
- Thread starter orangello
- Start date
I don't care if you disagree with me. Go ahead and fill all of that in for yourself. It helped me to see who I would rather have.
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
It won't prove anything, but just to make you happy!
Offense: there's more to offense then your own offense. Marshall
Shooting: Rivers
Passing: Marshall
Defense:neither are good on defense
Bball IQ: Hands down Marshall (is a more pure pg noes when to shoot and pass makes others better).
Athleticism: Rivers
Speed: Rivers
Intangibles: in my opinion Marshall is why UNC is a top ten teem and not 15-20 area makes other teammates better.
Basically it comes down to this. Would you rather take Monte Ellis or Rondo? A scoring PG who can shoot but can't pass if his life was depended on him. Or Rondo who gets his team involve whenever he has a chance?
Yes!
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
I do think it's funny that people say Marshall obviously has a higher bball IQ just because he passes the ball more. I guess Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant didn't have a high bball IQ...also judging a players defense only by steals is just ridiculous. I swear you guys that say Rivers isolates and dribbles around for 15 seconds haven't actually watched him play more than one game....maybe.
I think what people continue to forget is that while Marshall is a great passer with great court vision, he is also very lucky that he gets to play with one of the best shooters in the NCAA (Barnes), a very lengthy, and athletic big man who helps a lot when Marshall gets himself in trouble (Henson) and one of the craftiest and most highly skilled big men in the NCAA (Zeller) along with several other highly regarded shooters (Bullock and PJ Hairston). Marshall might have more raw talent on his team now than he would if he came to Utah. You can't forget that.
As for what I want, I'm obviously a Rivers fan. As I keep on watching games, I see that the times are changing. Having a PG who can score at will, but also distribute at the same time is huge. We need a shooter and a playmaker, Rivers gives us both. I know his assist numbers aren't high, but I watch this kid play a lot, and I can tell you that he does look for his teammates more than other thinks, I've seen some absolutely incredible passes from him that weren't finished. He's a competitor. He's a winner. He will never stop trying to improve. Hell, one of the biggest things people were calling him out on coming in to college was his lack of a 3 point shot. He shot 32% from 3 in high school, in college he's shooting 41%. In regards to how Marshall helps our offense, can you imagine teams playing defense against us with him? They'll be able to have a guard sitting 5-8 feet back from him and clutter up the middle. Who's he going to pass to then?
I think what people continue to forget is that while Marshall is a great passer with great court vision, he is also very lucky that he gets to play with one of the best shooters in the NCAA (Barnes), a very lengthy, and athletic big man who helps a lot when Marshall gets himself in trouble (Henson) and one of the craftiest and most highly skilled big men in the NCAA (Zeller) along with several other highly regarded shooters (Bullock and PJ Hairston). Marshall might have more raw talent on his team now than he would if he came to Utah. You can't forget that.
As for what I want, I'm obviously a Rivers fan. As I keep on watching games, I see that the times are changing. Having a PG who can score at will, but also distribute at the same time is huge. We need a shooter and a playmaker, Rivers gives us both. I know his assist numbers aren't high, but I watch this kid play a lot, and I can tell you that he does look for his teammates more than other thinks, I've seen some absolutely incredible passes from him that weren't finished. He's a competitor. He's a winner. He will never stop trying to improve. Hell, one of the biggest things people were calling him out on coming in to college was his lack of a 3 point shot. He shot 32% from 3 in high school, in college he's shooting 41%. In regards to how Marshall helps our offense, can you imagine teams playing defense against us with him? They'll be able to have a guard sitting 5-8 feet back from him and clutter up the middle. Who's he going to pass to then?
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
Rondo is an athletic freak who can play defense and can actually create his own offense. Even in college Rondo's lowest FG % was 48%...compare that to Marshall who's highest is 42%, and he hardly even gets guarded. You can't compare Marshall to Rondo though, completely different playing style and Rondo can actually score, Marshall can't. It makes a difference in the NBA. How often do you see Marshall drive to the hoop like Rondo does? Let me answer that for you....never.
While we would be fine with Harris.. I mean Rivers, and Watson.. I mean Marshall, it would be nice to have the best of both worlds.
Is there a guard out there that can shoot and pass?
I've mentioned this dude, Scott Machado, from Iona before.
He could be pretty good. I wanted to wait and see what he did for more of this year to see if he was as good as I thought he would be.
Rivers can shoot, Marshall can pass, Machado can do both. The only question is can he do it against good competition, and is he too short?
He is 6'1", where the other two are 6'4".
He scores 13 a game on 48% and 40% from 3.
He grabs 5 boards, gives 10 dishes, and takes 1.6 steals a game.
His team is 21-6, and I hope they make the tournament so I can see what he can do there.
They are currently in the Bracketology as a 14 seed.
I haven't seen Rivers, but I'm worried about his 2 assists a game as much as I am worried about Marshall's shooting.
We have Harris and Watson now.
If we have to choose I would rather have a Watson type, so Marshall... but there are times we need a PG that is a threat to shoot.
Is there a guard out there that can shoot and pass?
I've mentioned this dude, Scott Machado, from Iona before.
He could be pretty good. I wanted to wait and see what he did for more of this year to see if he was as good as I thought he would be.
Rivers can shoot, Marshall can pass, Machado can do both. The only question is can he do it against good competition, and is he too short?
He is 6'1", where the other two are 6'4".
He scores 13 a game on 48% and 40% from 3.
He grabs 5 boards, gives 10 dishes, and takes 1.6 steals a game.
His team is 21-6, and I hope they make the tournament so I can see what he can do there.
They are currently in the Bracketology as a 14 seed.
I haven't seen Rivers, but I'm worried about his 2 assists a game as much as I am worried about Marshall's shooting.
We have Harris and Watson now.
If we have to choose I would rather have a Watson type, so Marshall... but there are times we need a PG that is a threat to shoot.
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
I can't speak for everybody, but I believe a lot of the concerns with Machado are that he plays in a very high-tempo offense and hasn't performed that well in a half-court offense. The main concern from myself is just that I haven't seen him play, so I really hate to give an opinion on him. However based on the opinions from several people whom I really respect, he's an average player, but definitely nothing special and there are many concerns on whether he will ever be a legit starter. I would take Damian Lillard over him.
6'1" is definitely tall enough to play the point.
You could be right, but you can't really discount 10 assists, 5 boards, 1.6 steals, 48% 2pt and 40% 3pt.
I think saying he's an average player is a bit harsh.
I at least want to take a good look at him, or a flier if he can be picked later.
I do like Lillard, he's got some fire.
By the way, Marshall should have the same "he plays in a very high-tempo offense" argument for him as well, so I don't really buy it.
Again, I hope to see him play in the tournament to decide for sure.
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Hantlers
Well-Known Member
Ugh...that's the comment I was going to make earlier but forgot to. Thanks for bringing that up, because I definitely agree with it. I wasn't saying Machado was an average college player btw, saying that he would be an average NBA player...which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like I said, I hate to judge a player without watching him play so I really can't say much about him.
Rivers would have to improve a notch or two to be at Monta's level offensively. I'd more conservatively say he's a rich man's Delonte West with better BBall IQ, or a Mo Williams with the ability to drive. Rivers *might* be able to become a slightly poor man's D.Will.
orangello
Well-Known Member
I have felt this way too. It has everything to do with the rule changes in the game.
He's coming off an injury physically and maturing in other aspects. He could be really, really good if he wants to be.
orangello
Well-Known Member
Please keep in mind that Monte was decent his first couple of seasons but he really got better after that. Rivers game will continue to improve. Please quote me when he does develop that. You can call my a prophet or something.
Man - you start comparing players in this forum and it's like the house is burning down or something. Of course I'm not saying Marshall is Rondo - anyone who read it that way is just plain stupid. (no offence).
Let me ask you this - Rubio wasn't known to be a shooter or a scorer neither. Yet he's thriving. How?
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
You were making a reference towards Marshall being a passing PG similar to Rondo, I was just showing you why that was a terrible comparison. I wasn't insulting you, (like you did by calling me stupid) I was just educating you.
Rubio is thriving because he can actually play defense, does more than just pass, and is shooting better in the NBA than Marshall is in college. And Rubio is by no means a good shooter, but the main difference is that while Marshall is a good ball handler and a great passer, Rubio is better. Rubio can take NBA players off the dribble and get to the hole and create, Marshall struggles doing that against average college players. What do you think is gonna happen when he's playing against NBA type players?
All those good things you said about Rubio - was he known to have done that last year in Europe? Let me "educate" you - he averaged 6.5 PPG, shot 22.4% from 3pt and 31% FG.
It wasn't until he entered the NBA that he started playing this good. But you probably would have counted him out by just looking at last year's stats...
aybars
Well-Known Member
i have known Rubio since he was 15-16.what he is doing right now in the NBA is a tipical rubio honeymoon season.He allways starts really really good,just like he did in the Barcelona,,or he did in the national team,than slowly he starts to suck. in europe, basketball experts says his playing style fits better in NBA,but lets just wait and see.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Scott Machado from Iona is leading the country with 9.9 assists per game. With just 3.3 turnovers per game, he has a 3:1 A/TO ratio. He's 6'1", 180 (small), and shooting 48.4/40.7/81.1% which is very solid overall. Throw in his 5.3 rebounds and 1.6 steals per game and he could be a sleeper. His frame is an obvious concern but someone like this with obvious true point guard skills could be legit. My bigger concern would be how much his shooting numbers jumped this year.