Prop 2 Utah

[colton]

Both sides have expressed that it needs some fine tuning and that can be done even after if it passes in November. The legislature in this state will make sure some changes are made I have no doubt. My bottom line is, people need it, and the state and legislature has sat on its hands and accomplished nothing on this issue and won’t either if this does not pass. I will be voting for it, their hand needs to be forced to address this issue. The final result will not be exactly what’s in proposition 2 when all is said and done.

I don't think that's correct. At least, it contradicts what I was able to find on the utah.gov website just now: "What is a Voter Initiative? An initiative is a means to enact new laws or ordinances through a direct vote, rather than through a legislative body. If enough voters sign a petition, the proposed initiative is placed on a ballot to be voted on. If the initiative passes, it becomes law, just as if it were passed by a legislative body." from https://propertyrights.utah.gov/voter-initiatives-referenda/

If you have reliable information otherwise please post.

 

[Jazzta]

All I can say is that CBD helps me sleep like a baby and feel well rested in the morning.

 

[oneye]

I don't think that's correct. At least, it contradicts what I was able to find on the utah.gov website just now: "What is a Voter Initiative? An initiative is a means to enact new laws or ordinances through a direct vote, rather than through a legislative body. If enough voters sign a petition, the proposed initiative is placed on a ballot to be voted on. If the initiative passes, it becomes law, just as if it were passed by a legislative body." from https://propertyrights.utah.gov/voter-initiatives-referenda/

If you have reliable information otherwise please post.

That does not mean the legislature cannot change parts of the initiative once it is enacted like any other law. Laws are fine tuned and changed quite often. You're right as in, it wouldn't be like adding amendments to the bill or changing it before it was enacted, but things can be changed by the legislature by passing laws, etc. in addition to it. No they don't get to specifically bring this bill and change it, but they can add other legislation to address their issues of concern. This happens all the time, it's not like a law is set in stone and can never be changed just because it is passed or that other legislation cannot be passed to address issues with it. How often do you think laws are passed and never change? This at least forces their hand to do so and takes a much needed step to allow the legal use of this drug for those who need it. If this doesn't pass, they will sit on their hands and do nothing like they have for years now and pass nothing. This will force them to address the issue, even if some work needs to be done in addition to this law passing. It's also worth noting what they are asking far as far as regulation and a registered pharmacy cannot happen until the federal government removes it from the banned substance list. It cannot be controlled or administered in the same way other drugs can because it is not legal federally. Essentially what they are saying is, we support medical marijuana through a pathway that can not be accomplished. Which is just a fancy way of saying, we really don't want it at all.

 

[JazzGal]

This is the link you want for the Kirton McConkie article rebuttal. The other one was for an Eagle Forum one.

https://libertasutah.org/personal-f...es-analysis-of-the-utah-medical-cannabis-act/

 

[colton]

All I can say is that CBD helps me sleep like a baby and feel well rested in the morning.

This relates to my number 1 complaint about the existing law. CBD from hemp can be made with minuscule amounts of THC in it. There is not reason why it shouldn't be legal and made fully available in Utah.

 

[oneye]

This relates to my number 1 complaint about the existing law. CBD from hemp can be made with minuscule amounts of THC in it. There is not reason why it shouldn't be legal and made fully available in Utah.

No logical reason anyway.

 

[Gameface]

The Utah legislature had an opportunity to pass some form of medical MJ last session and they failed to do so. This initiative is a response to their failure to act. If they wanted the more limited version then they should have passed one of the two options that they voted on.

The church's response, that they are all for medical MJ, had massive conditions attached that means, effectively, there is nothing that they will actually support on the horizon for the next 5 or more years. So them saying they are for some form of medical MJ is disingenuous at best. This is an attempt to kill this initiative and then continue to delay and make excuses for not passing medical MJ.

I feel VERY strongly that we must pass this to send a message to our legislature that when they have a chance to act they need to act on issues like this. They did a similar thing with beer and the current "3.2" (4%abv) law. More than 80% of the beer available in stores will be gone before the end of the year. They could have passed something that would address that, they decided to see what would happen once the major beer makers stop making "3.2" (4%abv) beer. What's going to happen is that the state run liquor stores are going to start selling A LOT more 9%abv beer. Congratulations!

 

[oneye]

The Utah legislature had an opportunity to pass some form of medical MJ last session and they failed to do so. This initiative is a response to their failure to act. If they wanted the more limited version then they should have passed one of the two options that they voted on.

The church's response, that they are all for medical MJ, had massive conditions attached that means, effectively, there is nothing that they will actually support on the horizon for the next 5 or more years. So them saying they are for some form of medical MJ is disingenuous at best. This is an attempt to kill this initiative and then continue to delay and make excuses for not passing medical MJ.

I feel VERY strongly that we must pass this to send a message to our legislature that when they have a chance to act they need to act on issues like this. They did a similar thing with beer and the current "3.2" (4%abv) law. More than 80% of the beer available in stores will be gone before the end of the year. They could have passed something that would address that, they decided to see what would happen once the major beer makers stop making "3.2" (4%abv) beer. What's going to happen is that the state run liquor stores are going to start selling A LOT more 9%abv beer. Congratulations!

This.^

If passed this does not go into affect until 2020. That is plenty of time for the legislature to craft and pass legislation to address concerns they may have. The bottom line is, they’ve had years to pass SOMETHING on medical marijuana. They don’t want it period. They can say they want it in this certain fancy way but the truth is they’ve had chance after chance to do so and it never even gets slightly anywhere. If this is passed it forces them to address it and get help to those who need it. They’ve spun this in a way to say, we want it medically, but through no realistic path. That means they plan on doing nothing. A law that isn’t enacted for 2 more years leaves plenty of time to address it. Laws are not set in stone once they are passed. They can pass new legislation to address concerns. If it doesn’t pass, it goes no where.

 

[JazzGal]

There was a man on one of the news channels last night. He has a condition that was vastly improved by medical marijuana while he lived in Washington. His job required his transfer to Utah, and he has suffered greatly. He has been so excited about Prop 2 until yesterday, when his church told him not to vote for it. He has to now believe that something better will be coming soon (all evidence to the contrary). It broke my heart.

Stuff like this was the catalyst for my leaving the LDS Church. The way their interference destroys people was more than my soul could bear, and I could no longer be a part of it. I believe a church's main goal should be to reduce suffering, but this church does not do that in so many instances. I would be fine if they would say that their members should not use medical marijuana even if it is legal, just like they do with alcohol and other substances (although one is not like the others). Then it would be up to the individual members to choose to follow that directive. But the way they use their influence to force everyone else in Utah to abide by their rules is wrong. There is so much suffering out there, and barring relief for people is cruel and inhumane. And I'm just skeptical enough to wonder if all their shares in pharmaceutical companies has anything to do with their decision. Better to have an opioid crisis than to interfere with business.

 

[♪alt13]

I don't think that's correct. At least, it contradicts what I was able to find on the utah.gov website just now: "What is a Voter Initiative? An initiative is a means to enact new laws or ordinances through a direct vote, rather than through a legislative body. If enough voters sign a petition, the proposed initiative is placed on a ballot to be voted on. If the initiative passes, it becomes law, just as if it were passed by a legislative body." from https://propertyrights.utah.gov/voter-initiatives-referenda/

If you have reliable information otherwise please post.

The legislature would have the power to repeal the entire law, it just wouldn't be politically smart to repeal a law that was approved by the same voters that you need to reelect you. if this initiative passes I fully expect it to be tweaked, changed, and refined not just in the next legislative session but in many sessions to come.

 

[fishonjazz]

This relates to my number 1 complaint about the existing law. CBD from hemp can be made with minuscule amounts of THC in it. There is not reason why it shouldn't be legal and made fully available in Utah.

No reason why THC should be illegal either.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don’t normally use marijuana due to my job and drug testing but recently I hurt my back and was prescribed hydrocodone/acetaminophen. I took those pills for a few days and they barely helped and my back was constantly killing me.
I decided to take one hit/puff of marijuana and my back pain nearly disappeared. It worked way better than the pills. And it actually seemed to help in a long term fashion since after the effects of the marijuana wore off my pain was still less than before.

 

[The Thriller]

2 Questions:

1. Doesn’t the LDS church claim during sacrament meetings at least to be “politically neutral?” If not explicitly then implicitly, there’s a message that it abstains from politics. Which clearly, doesn’t happen. This being the most recent example. Does this effect younger and more progressive members? Will it impact their retention?

2. Will this email backfire? This could potentially energize nonmormon voters (who might normally not even vote) to vote for the prop to merely “stick it to the man.” The church hasn’t exactly won a big legal battle like this for a while. The last time they formally organized like this, they helped speed along the legalization of same sex marriages.

Personally, I’m a card carrying member but I think the church should STFU. If they want to involve themselves in politics, as they’ve done many times in the past, then involve yourself in items that matter. They’ve involved themselves in the past with immigration and housing discrimination legislation. Yet, I haven’t seen anything recently about Trump, immigrant children in cages, or the overall pathetic housing situation affecting the state.

If you’re going to send me an email about prop 2 then you better damn well send me an email about 500+ children being traumatized by our completely immoral president. If members were organized by the church and forced their elected representatives among states like Idaho, Arizona, and utah, they really could end this horrific border situation created by our president immediately.

Sadly, keeping the gays unmarried and opioids legal (MJ not) seems to be the priority of the church’s epically bad PR dept.

 

[The Thriller]

I don’t normally use marijuana due to my job and drug testing but recently I hurt my back and was prescribed hydrocodone/acetaminophen. I took those pills for a few days and they barely helped and my back was constantly killing me.
I decided to take one hit/puff of marijuana and my back pain nearly disappeared. It worked way better than the pills. And it actually seemed to help in a long term fashion since after the effects of the marijuana wore off my pain was still less than before.

I’ve heard similar stories hundreds of times.

I’m 100 percent for full legalization because:

a) criminalization of it only maintains the 21st century Jim Crow. Making it a felony only penalizes brown and black populations by taking away their young men and preventing them from ever voting or holding office. The book, “The New Jim Crow” was transformative.

b) stories like yours. Opioids suck. A natural nonaddictive alt is well overdue.

 

[♪alt13]

2 Questions:

1. Doesn’t the LDS church claim during sacrament meetings at least to be “politically neutral?” If not explicitly then implicitly, there’s a message that it abstains from politics. Which clearly, doesn’t happen. This being the most recent example. Does this effect younger and more progressive members? Will it impact their retention?

2. Will this email backfire? This could potentially energize nonmormon voters (who might normally not even vote) to vote for the prop to merely “stick it to the man.” The church hasn’t exactly won a big legal battle like this for a while. The last time they formally organized like this, they helped speed along the legalization of same sex marriages.

Personally, I’m a card carrying member but I think the church should STFU. If they want to involve themselves in politics, as they’ve done many times in the past, then involve yourself in items that matter. They’ve involved themselves in the past with immigration and housing discrimination legislation. Yet, I haven’t seen anything recently about Trump, immigrant children in cages, or the overall pathetic housing situation affecting the state.

If you’re going to send me an email about prop 2 then you better damn well send me an email about 500+ children being traumatized by our completely immoral president. If members were organized by the church and forced their elected representatives among states like Idaho, Arizona, and utah, they really could end this horrific border situation created by our president immediately.

Sadly, keeping the gays unmarried and opioids legal (MJ not) seems to be the priority of the church’s epically bad PR dept.

Uhhh they organized and won on the gay marriage thing both here and in Cali. The courts both here and in Cali eventually struck the amendments down as unconstitutional.

 

[The Thriller]

Uhhh they organized and won on the gay marriage thing both here and in Cali. The courts both here and in Cali eventually struck the amendments down as unconstitutional.

I guess I should have phrased it as they lost in the long-term. A bad move both politically and legally if the desire was to win converts and/or prevent gay marriage.

Likewise, I see defeating prop 2 as a short-term victory and yet another long-term loss. Do we really believe that:
a) marijuana will remain illegal in utah in 10+ years despite being surrounded by states that will have legalized it?
b) do we really see this as an issue that will win converts or further alienate the church from society?

 

[oneye]

I guess I should have phrased it as they lost in the long-term. A bad move both politically and legally if the desire was to win converts and/or prevent gay marriage.

Likewise, I see defeating prop 2 as a short-term victory and yet another long-term loss. Do we really believe that:
a) marijuana will remain illegal in utah in 10+ years despite being surrounded by states that will have legalized it?
b) do we really see this as an issue that will win converts or further alienate the church from society?

Let’s get on with it. Vote yes for prop 2.

 

[colton]

2 Questions:

1. Doesn’t the LDS church claim during sacrament meetings at least to be “politically neutral?” If not explicitly then implicitly, there’s a message that it abstains from politics. Which clearly, doesn’t happen. This being the most recent example. Does this effect younger and more progressive members? Will it impact their retention?

2. Will this email backfire? This could potentially energize nonmormon voters (who might normally not even vote) to vote for the prop to merely “stick it to the man.” The church hasn’t exactly won a big legal battle like this for a while. The last time they formally organized like this, they helped speed along the legalization of same sex marriages.

Personally, I’m a card carrying member but I think the church should STFU. If they want to involve themselves in politics, as they’ve done many times in the past, then involve yourself in items that matter. They’ve involved themselves in the past with immigration and housing discrimination legislation. Yet, I haven’t seen anything recently about Trump, immigrant children in cages, or the overall pathetic housing situation affecting the state.

If you’re going to send me an email about prop 2 then you better damn well send me an email about 500+ children being traumatized by our completely immoral president. If members were organized by the church and forced their elected representatives among states like Idaho, Arizona, and utah, they really could end this horrific border situation created by our president immediately.

Sadly, keeping the gays unmarried and opioids legal (MJ not) seems to be the priority of the church’s epically bad PR dept.

I remember this church statement in June, don't you?
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-separation-of-families-at-us-mexico-border

And the church is politically neutral in the sense that they don't endorse candidates or parties. But they have always reserved the right to speak out on specific issues. Here's the politically neutral statement: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/official-statement/political-neutrality

 

[The Thriller]

I remember this church statement in June, don't you?
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-separation-of-families-at-us-mexico-border

And the church is politically neutral in the sense that they don't endorse candidates or parties. But they have always reserved the right to speak out on specific issues. Here's the politically neutral statement: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/official-statement/political-neutrality

Thanks for the political neutrality clarification.

However, with regards to putting children into cages, a church’s statement is different than actually emailing all members directing them to do amcertain thing, no? Putting pressure on Utah’s, Idaho’s, and Arizona’s elected officials to speak out against the “Modern-day King Noah” and his policy would’ve led to reuniting these families quicker.

Definitely wish they organized and spoke out against this like they just did with prop 2. This is just horrific. One of the worst things I’ve seen our country do. A moral catastrophe:

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Thanks for the political neutrality clarification.

However, with regards to putting children into cages, a church’s statement is different than actually emailing all members directing them to do amcertain thing, no? Putting pressure on Utah’s, Idaho’s, and Arizona’s elected officials to speak out against the “Modern-day King Noah” and his policy would’ve led to reuniting these families quicker.

Definitely wish they organized and spoke out against this like they just did with prop 2. This is just horrific. One of the worst things I’ve seen our country do. A moral catastrophe:

Was there a proposition the Church could encourage members to vote on in regards to the children?