The Forgotten Man
- Thread starter Archie Moses
- Start date
The Madame and I have both been summer interns for the ACLU back in our college/law school days. I think it would be hard to find attorneys that are more in the Atticus Finch mold. Many of them have made large personal financial sacrifices for that job.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I have a few questions....
#1 What's the American Dream? Is it paying higher taxes so that 1% of the population can have lower taxes and they can "create jobs" for the rest of us lemmings? Is it paying thousands of dollars for crappy health insurance? Is it getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to pay for schooling? Is it working 60 hours a week for pennies? Is it kicking Iraq's *** and paying trillions of dollars for it? Perhaps the 19th century didn't have some of the "big government" that we have today. But I doubt this guy would have enjoyed living back then. In fact, he'd probably be painting a picture in favor of government.
Were Americans more "happy" 100 years ago? Doubt it... Back then they were ripping the government for doing too little.
So what is the American Dream anyway?
#2 I get so tired of these morons acting like they KNOW EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers would have done in the 20th and 21st centuries basing everything upon a piece of paper. In fact, less than 100 years after the piece of paper was written, Thomas Jefferson who had adamantly opposed big government and a powerful white house pulled a 180 with the Louisiana Purchase. I guess if it benefits the country then it's ok. Likewise, I believe the Founding Fathers would find programs and reforms today that would violate the Constitution yet would greatly benefit the country.
#3 People act as if the USA is the only country with decent living conditions while everyone else is in a cave. In reality, many other countries offer great standards of living, jobs, opportunity, sights, programs, etc. We love to rip on western Europe. While they laugh at us because we pay out of our asses for health care and college, two of the biggest stresses(not to mention costs) one will ever have in their lifetimes here.
So again, another pissed off lemming. Especially hilarious acting as if Satan is the one creating big government. As if having too little government allowing businesses to do whatever is somehow Christlike? Sweatshops, women's oppression, slavery, and all those days when government stayed out of the way remind me so much of Charity, Christ, and Heaven. That's basically what heaven is going to be, a sweatshop. While hell is a socialist paradise.
Pass over some more foxnews kool-aid. Debt, big government, freedom, constitution, blllaaaahhhh USA! Muslims suck! ACLU DUMB! Don't Tread on me! Guns! Europe gay! Free market rule!
#1 What's the American Dream? Is it paying higher taxes so that 1% of the population can have lower taxes and they can "create jobs" for the rest of us lemmings? Is it paying thousands of dollars for crappy health insurance? Is it getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to pay for schooling? Is it working 60 hours a week for pennies? Is it kicking Iraq's *** and paying trillions of dollars for it? Perhaps the 19th century didn't have some of the "big government" that we have today. But I doubt this guy would have enjoyed living back then. In fact, he'd probably be painting a picture in favor of government.
Were Americans more "happy" 100 years ago? Doubt it... Back then they were ripping the government for doing too little.
So what is the American Dream anyway?
#2 I get so tired of these morons acting like they KNOW EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers would have done in the 20th and 21st centuries basing everything upon a piece of paper. In fact, less than 100 years after the piece of paper was written, Thomas Jefferson who had adamantly opposed big government and a powerful white house pulled a 180 with the Louisiana Purchase. I guess if it benefits the country then it's ok. Likewise, I believe the Founding Fathers would find programs and reforms today that would violate the Constitution yet would greatly benefit the country.
#3 People act as if the USA is the only country with decent living conditions while everyone else is in a cave. In reality, many other countries offer great standards of living, jobs, opportunity, sights, programs, etc. We love to rip on western Europe. While they laugh at us because we pay out of our asses for health care and college, two of the biggest stresses(not to mention costs) one will ever have in their lifetimes here.
So again, another pissed off lemming. Especially hilarious acting as if Satan is the one creating big government. As if having too little government allowing businesses to do whatever is somehow Christlike? Sweatshops, women's oppression, slavery, and all those days when government stayed out of the way remind me so much of Charity, Christ, and Heaven. That's basically what heaven is going to be, a sweatshop. While hell is a socialist paradise.
Pass over some more foxnews kool-aid. Debt, big government, freedom, constitution, blllaaaahhhh USA! Muslims suck! ACLU DUMB! Don't Tread on me! Guns! Europe gay! Free market rule!
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Hey Kicky, does it irritate you that the lawyer is depicted as evil in this painting?
It's interesting how the business-woman, farmer, immigrant, and school teacher are depicted as good. I thought school teachers were trying to brainwash our youth with Marxism? I thought immigrants were bad since all they do is live off welfare,refuse to learn english, and sell drugs? The Christian minister is painted as good too. Weren't these the same guys that thought women were witches and that blacks should be slaves?
I also love how business and farmers are painted as good. As if farming subsidies aren't costing us a thing.... Nor unregulated wallstreet...
Edit: What's the difference between a school teacher and professor? I always thought they were the same. Professor just sounds a bit more professional....
Is this guy Mormon?
It's interesting how the business-woman, farmer, immigrant, and school teacher are depicted as good. I thought school teachers were trying to brainwash our youth with Marxism? I thought immigrants were bad since all they do is live off welfare,refuse to learn english, and sell drugs? The Christian minister is painted as good too. Weren't these the same guys that thought women were witches and that blacks should be slaves?
I also love how business and farmers are painted as good. As if farming subsidies aren't costing us a thing.... Nor unregulated wallstreet...
Edit: What's the difference between a school teacher and professor? I always thought they were the same. Professor just sounds a bit more professional....
Is this guy Mormon?
Look at all of you getting your panties in a twist. There is no way this guy really feels the way he does, it's just not possible. He's only doing it to cause a stir and to sell paintings. You rejects are lapping it up. I'm just curious how many copies Duck Rogers and BeanClown have ordered for their friends and families.
Not really. If I got mad everytime someone insulted lawyers generally I'd never be happy. Some poeple seem to think it's a great zinger, Archie has used it approximately 500 times, but I don't care.
Professors usually denote people with PhDs who teach at universities. There's a whole strain of conservatism that holds they are all liberal and destroying America. It's part of the anti-elitist trend in American conservatism.
Yes. I did some looking into this last night but didn't want to post it because I figured some people would accuse me of playing "that card."
His artist bio on his website cites his BYU education and one of the first google hits on his name is a deseret books page where you can buy his paintings of LDS temples. Given some of his political ideology I'd guess he's part of the present John Birch Society segment in the LDS faith.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
why is martin v Hunter Lessee even brought up here? Wasn't the ruling exactly what the Constitution directs? Shouldn't the Supreme Court have authority over state courts? If not, then why even have a Supreme Court? Am I missing something?
Also, on the paining w/Barack Obama, read what he wrote about George Washington. He asks, "I wonder what he would think of the infringement upon our liberties today?"
Wouldn't the opposite actually occur? So many people are owning property now, receive education, voting rights.... anyway...
Serious question, why is Reagan so worshiped right now? Growing up, I hardly ever heard about him. I guess he was a likable President. He did some good things and some bad things.
Clinton kicked his ***. But it's almost like a cult thing right now. Is it because Republicans are trying desperately to find the last somewhat decent leader they had? Is it because their party has no future right now? Other than the radical tea party Sarah Palin jokes that no one likes?
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Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
I could careless if you're a lawyer. I believe there are a few others on the board as well. The thing I don't like about you isn't your profession, it's because you're a condescending **** know-it-all. Yeah, you can take that to the bank.
*I'll give you credit where credit is due. You're smart, hella smart. Too bad you got to be such a clown about it though. Lawyer seems to fit you pretty well I'd say.
*Prepares for a 8 paragraph lawyer style counter argument.
actually, there was another local case a few years earlier that the ACLU had gotten involved in that pissed me off and this just seemed to be the icing on the cake. the picture is pretty disgusting - - of course the artist has a right to paint whatever he chose, and it's unfortunate the situation played out the way it did. As I recall, originally it was just shown in a showcase of student work within the school, and it was only planned to be on display for a few days, and not available for public viewing.
It just seemed to me that emotions were running pretty high at the time, and the painting was not originally supposed to be part of the exhibit anyhow, but the student who painted it and a few of his friends hung it anyhow, and then started agitating about their "rights to free speech" when the school requested it be taken down. A friend of mine was an administrator at the School of the Art Institute at the time, and she said many of the museum staff felt the painting should not be exhibited beyond the original scope of the student showcase, but that there was a bit of a power play going on between the museum and the school.
Looking back now, I'd probably see it the other way, although as I recall, the comments of the artist did nothing to engender any sympathy or support, and my attitude was influenced by that as well.
My only point was that you use it as an insult on the merits consistently, regardless of what you actually intend when you say it. That doesn't change my overall point that if I got upset everytime someone used "lawyer" as a perjorative I'd never be happy. And obviously, Archie, I give your opinion of me the due weight it deserves.
The wiki article has a pretty different story, including police officers and city officials coming on site to confiscate and damage the painting. If true, that seems like a classic free speech case particularly as it applies to satirizing government officials.
At the appeals level that case got the most famous non-Supreme Court judges in the country. Two of them, Posner and Easterbrook, have frankly probably been more influential in the judicial community than most of the Supreme Court justices over the last 20 years. That's some heavy duty firepower.
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yeah, definitely from reading what's on wikipedia (in the main article on "Mirth & Girth" - not the more general article I linked), I don't object to the ACLU picking up the case. But that seems to be a pretty simplified version of the events. As I recall though, there was some discussion about displaying that picture that went on before the whole thing became public. Now I want to talk to my neighbor who'd been working there at the time to see what she remembers!
kind of interesting to go back through this stuff in a way,
LINK
the above link is one cited by wikipedia, from what I recall, not only was this painting not done in class, it had never been turned in for a grade and was not part of his "school-work" and that's part of the reason it wasn't supposed to be displayed.
kind of interesting to go back through this stuff in a way,
LINK
the above link is one cited by wikipedia, from what I recall, not only was this painting not done in class, it had never been turned in for a grade and was not part of his "school-work" and that's part of the reason it wasn't supposed to be displayed.
Slappfisk
Member
https://www.mcnaughtonart.com/artwork/view_zoom/?artpiece_id=353
Beautiful piece of art, has me lost for words.
Beautiful piece of art, has me lost for words.
I can answer this question in part. I grew up during the Nixon, Ford, Carter & Regan administrations. During the 70's America was in a funk. There was this dark, depressing feeling that was almost palpable in the air. The feeling was the worst during Carter's time in office. The US had just left Vietnam, went through Watergate, was in a recession, had oil embargos that left you waiting in line for gas hours at a time, Iran was holding numerous Americans hostage & we were at the height of the cold war. It was just an ugly time. To this day when I hear the 70's mentioned I get this feeling of bleh.
Under Regan this all changed. He constantly spoke of America's greatness and generally made you feel proud to be an American. For lack of a better term, he cured America's self image.
Dammit, how can you consider yourself a conservative and not know how to spell his name?
But Marcus nailed it. Reagan lifted America's spirits, though many would argue that his fiscal policies continued the spiral. As a liberal conservative, I believe Reagan was the right man at the right time.
LOL I have a friend named Regan so whenever I type Ronnie's name I always spell it like my friends.
Do you get the same feeling now that you had during the 70's? I'm hoping that the right man at the right ime shows up in '12 and that we don't have to wait until '20.
It feels worse because of the responsibilities that come with being a parent, but I remember the cloud that hung over everyone's head in 1979 when the morning traffic report was which stations had gas and how long the lines were. I remember when the hostages were taken in Tehran and the anger that was felt because these little pissants were making America look like a bunch of *******. Can Obama change the country's morale? I sure hope so, because I don't see anyone on the horizon who might do it.
prodigal punk
Member
During that time, was the Dem's agenda rife with fear mongering, divisive speech, and anti-government propaganda? Cause that would have made it that much easier to bring the country together.
No, it was just rife with Jimmy Carter, Gerry Brown, Ted Kennedy, Walter Mondale, etc.
I'm biased on this point (I worked at the Carter presidential library one semester) but I think Carter gets a bad rap. Reagan, on the other hand, was a short-term thinking guy whos ultimate legacy is so destructive that at this point even arch conservatives from the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s would be driven out of the Republican party as socialists and RINOs.
Obviously, I don't expect much agreement on this point of view on a message board whose members are primarily based out of Utah.
EDIT: To make my point about socialists and RINOs more explicit and particularlized I'll name names.
Herbert Hoover (the last conservative president prior to New Deal government expansion) would be termed a socialist and a class warrior by today's Republican party even though his is the era the Tea Party would presumably like to return to in terms of governmental structure.
Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon also would be unelectably liberal on economic policy.
Barry Goldwater would get run out of the party as a RINO based upon his social views.
A lot of those names are "the man" that the counterculture rebelled against in the 1960s and 1970s. Today, they're well to the left of the mainstream Republican party and Tea party.
Obviously, I don't expect much agreement on this point of view on a message board whose members are primarily based out of Utah.
EDIT: To make my point about socialists and RINOs more explicit and particularlized I'll name names.
Herbert Hoover (the last conservative president prior to New Deal government expansion) would be termed a socialist and a class warrior by today's Republican party even though his is the era the Tea Party would presumably like to return to in terms of governmental structure.
Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon also would be unelectably liberal on economic policy.
Barry Goldwater would get run out of the party as a RINO based upon his social views.
A lot of those names are "the man" that the counterculture rebelled against in the 1960s and 1970s. Today, they're well to the left of the mainstream Republican party and Tea party.