The Future: Who to Keep, at what price, and what it means for us

[Dumb Bloke]

You're assuming he's done developing and won't get any better. Judging by the contract Utah gave him, I'm guessing they disagree.


Sorry, but that's nutty. Right now we know we have 3 keepers, but even those guys are tradable in the right deal, with the possible exception of Gobert. This whole talk of core this and core that has always been about people making assumptions as to players developing, as if it's a given. Giving Burks 2 more weeks won't tell us anything as to how he might develop over the next few years, and since he's not really tradable at the moment, I guess he's part of the "core" for now.

I dont see what your issue is. I said Burks could fit in better if changes to the starting lineup was made. You cant really argue that he fits right now tho. Its clear they suck with him in it.

Sure everyone is expendable but at some point you have to assemble something that works then stick with it. Right now thats Favors, Hayward, Kanter, and hopefully Exum. Burks does not fit unless potentially if one of those pieces change.

Why thats so nutty is because Burks signed an untradable contract?

 

[Stifle Tower]

Maybe DL surprises us with a trade. Jazz are ready to take that next step. Maybe there will be a vet guard available for the #8 pick plus other assets. The only thing I don't like about that type of scenario is you only have a player for 2-3 years. With a 1st-round draft pick, you control someone's rights for up to 8 years, with 4 of those being relatively cheap. But just think how good we'd be NOW if Utah had a decent PG.

I just don't see why some are so down on Burks? Why does he NOT fit with Favors, Hayward and Gobert? Oh wait, that was Kanter, not Gobert? And does a non-shooting/non-penetrating and/or non-making guard fit?

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

I'd be looking at trading some combination of players not named Favors, Gobert, Hayward or Exum into a reasonably young physical wing defender who can shoot it.

Names please.

 

[freakazoid]

Maybe there will be a vet guard available for the #8 pick plus other assets. The only thing I don't like about that type of scenario is you only have a player for 2-3 years. With a 1st-round draft pick, you control someone's rights for up to 8 years, with 4 of those being relatively cheap.

The importance of this can never be stressed enough on this board. This is the factor that the win-now at all costs people just don't understand. Building through the draft is easily the most important aspect of building a team in Utah.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

The importance of this can never be stressed enough on this board. This is the factor that the win-now at all costs people just don't understand. Building through the draft is easily the most important aspect of building a team in Utah.

This is true in the NFL too. Maybe re-up Kanter, have a kickass draft, and just stockpile talent and assets like the league's never seen.

 

[Jamezz]

The importance of this can never be stressed enough on this board. This is the factor that the win-now at all costs people just don't understand. Building through the draft is easily the most important aspect of building a team in Utah.

Yes it's important, but you can't only feed off of drafted players, at some point you have to find complimentary players to who you think are your main pieces elsewhere. There's a thin line between becoming a perennial ping pong ball team and a team that actually makes the jump into the fun part of the standings. You have to find a balance between building through the draft and establishing a winning culture. To me the latter is more important than climbing up a couple spots in the draft.

 

[freakazoid]

Yes it's important, but you can't only feed off of drafted players, at some point you have to find complimentary players to who you think are your main pieces elsewhere. There's a thin line between becoming a perennial ping pong ball team and a team that actually makes the jump into the fun part of the standings. You have to find a balance between building through the draft and establishing a winning culture. To me the latter is more important than climbing up a couple spots in the draft.

Your idea of balance is giving up on a rebuild after one year. Two bad years doesn't mean you are stuck in the lottery forever. Smart management is crucial regardless of how you build a team. All you have to do is look at the NY teams if you want to see where a win-now attitude can get you. Winning culture is all well and good, but it doesn't change mediocre players into good ones. That's basically what DL is talking about when he says no skipping steps. Trying to implement a winning culture with a team full of mediocre players can mean missing out on the right player. Personally, I'll gladly put up with a few bad years for the team to be built the right way, rather than trying to be the Knicks or Nets, or some treadmill team.
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If we're being honest, I'm guessing by your many posts on the subject, you don't care one bit about our next draft pick, and are only concerned with winning now. I can remember when the majority of this board wanted to trade the NY pick we drafted Hayward with, and I was getting the same kind of responses when I argued for keeping the pick. Had the win-now crowd gotten their way, that pick would have been sold low and Gordo would be playing somewhere else. Luckily for us, KOC wasn't as short-sighted as so many fans.
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Lastly, for anyone who is worried about Utah becoming a perennial lottery team, you won't have to worry about it after this year. This is the last year for a while Utah will have a shot at a decent pick, and with Rudy tearing it up, we might already be too good, which is fine. When you have a player break out the way Rudy has, it's time take the next step in rebuilding. Just the same, make no mistake about it, this last high draft pick is important to building the team, no matter how little fans value draft picks and rookies.

 

[Jamezz]

If we're being honest, I'm guessing by your many posts on the subject, you don't care one bit about our next draft pick, and are only concerned with winning now. I can remember when the majority of this board wanted to trade the NY pick we drafted Hayward with, and I was getting the same kind of responses when I argued for keeping the pick. Had the win-now crowd gotten their way, that pick would have been sold low and Gordo would be playing somewhere else. Luckily for us, KOC wasn't as short-sighted as so many fans.

Honestly, you couldn't be any closer to the truth. I don't care if we pick 20th, 15th, 10th or 1st for that matter, any more than I care about picking smart and in correlation to the kind of team we want to set up. Spot a player like Carmelo Anthony, 3rd pick. Yes Lebron James was the 1st pick in that draft but 1) It was the Cavaliers 2) You have to be extremely lucky to get the 1st pick and 3) You really have to suck big balls the previous year to increase your chances of getting it. Now would you say that Carmelo has really been a difference maker as to making a team a contender? I wouldn't think so.

Now we have a 3rd pick as well, in Derrick Favors, and just now we're starting to see what he can bring to the table, hopefully on a regular basis. Same draft when Hayward was picked. Hey Paul George was picked next, Eric Bledsoe was 18th, a player we'd also be thrilled to have. In that case you just build the team a different way. Where were Stockton and Malone picked for that matter? Again, I'll be thrilled on draft night if we happen to have a very high pick, but not in expense of causing players not to be thrilled by being picked by a team that won't hesitate in sending you away if they consider that yes you're a good player, but we want MORE. I'm curious, do you approve of the 76ers' strategy? Do you think that's even bearable for the fans? I mean where do you draw the line my friend?

 

[Jamezz]

In any event (correct me if I'm wrong) if you're suggesting that rooting for losses is OK then this is a FAILED system and needs to be changed, because I've only had to confront this idea when I moved here. Back in Spain I was the happy dandy 'Let's go Jazz' kind of fan. I personally think it's kind of sad, I thought we were proud people here, combative...

#FightTheMachine

 

[Dumb Bloke]

Maybe DL surprises us with a trade. Jazz are ready to take that next step. Maybe there will be a vet guard available for the #8 pick plus other assets. The only thing I don't like about that type of scenario is you only have a player for 2-3 years. With a 1st-round draft pick, you control someone's rights for up to 8 years, with 4 of those being relatively cheap. But just think how good we'd be NOW if Utah had a decent PG.

I just don't see why some are so down on Burks? Why does he NOT fit with Favors, Hayward and Gobert? Oh wait, that was Kanter, not Gobert? And does a non-shooting/non-penetrating and/or non-making guard fit?

Please God no. We are only 30 games in and the cant stand losing crowd is already begging to skip steps.

Please DL please ignore the loud voices. Dont skip steps.

 

[framer]

Honestly, the only big decision that we have now is to keep Kanter or trade him for another asset. That is pretty much it. If we trade Kanter, we likely keep Booker. If we don't, he is probably gone. If Kanter isn't traded by the deadline, we are going to sign him, he is not important enough for a sign and trade. We probably roll with what we have plus a mid level exception signing of a combo guard. We will add a lottery pick, best player available, likely 12 or 11 who will either add depth to the bench or be used as a trade piece along with the GS pick to plug a hole. To be honest, the Jazz have enough young talent and need to think about adding some vets with playoff experience. Those guys can be fleeced off of treadmill teams for the promise of young talent which we can provide.

 

[freakazoid]

Where were Stockton and Malone picked for that matter?

How many HOFs has Utah drafted in the teens since Malone? Are you suggesting Utah should have a policy of operating in hopes that the exception to the rule will suddenly become the norm? Rudy was drafted at 27, so I guess there's no need to ever draft higher than that from now on. Hell, let's take it a step further. Utah found Wesley Mathews as an undrafted player, so I guess we can just trade all our picks from now on and count on finding undrafted guys to build the team.

I'm curious, do you approve of the 76ers' strategy? Do you think that's even bearable for the fans? I mean where do you draw the line my friend?

Absolutely no problem with what Philly is doing, and they don't even have the worst record in the league. Everybody read all the articles about them and decided to crown them the lowest of the low, and yet NY has a worse record and Mini is just as bad. A losing culture becomes a concern when you have most of the pieces in place, but is blown completely out of proportion when talking about teams who have a couple pieces and are really just at the start of their rebuild.
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Again, first step = finding the right players, and the sooner the better. Once you've got some keepers, then you can start worrying about finding a balance between building and implementing the right mindset. Also, too much is made of the effect losing has on NBA players. It's true that it can affect some players and possibly stunt development, but just like in any business, you're looking for people who can go through adversity and overcome it. If you have a player who is completely ruined just because he lost more than he won, he's probably not the guy you're hoping he was anyway.
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As for the fans, bad teams are bad teams. I wouldn't care anymore about going to a game to watch Charlotte than I would Philly. They are both bad teams, and ten more wins for a crappy team doesn't make me want to watch them any more than a team like Philly, Mini or NY. If I was a season ticket holder, it wouldn't change my mind one bit, because I believe building the right way is worth it, even if it means having to tolerate some ugly seasons.
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Lastly, we heard all of these same claims just a few years ago with GS. GS fans booed their owner after he traded Ellis for an injured Bogut because they wanted to win now. I'm guessing those same fans can now see the folly of their ways, and are certainly grateful that their FO didn't make decisions according to what fans think. Now they are on top of the league, and they got there through smart management and finding the right players. With any luck, I think this Utah team can be in a similar position in a few years, and if that happens, I doubt the win-now crowd will be complaining about how we got there.

 

[freakazoid]

In any event (correct me if I'm wrong) if you're suggesting that rooting for losses is OK then this is a FAILED system and needs to be changed, because I've only had to confront this idea when I moved here. Back in Spain I was the happy dandy 'Let's go Jazz' kind of fan. I personally think it's kind of sad, I thought we were proud people here, combative...

#FightTheMachine

Even I have a hard time rooting for losses, even though in a season like this, I have no doubt which is more important to building the team. I'd kind of like you to address the Hayward pick, though. I'd bet my left gonad that you were one of the ones who wanted to trade that pick every year before we finally got it.

 

[b_line]

Is there any possibility the Jazz are able to sign jimmy butler to a max offer and the Bulls don't match it? That would be insane. He is exactly what we need.

 

[Jamezz]

Even I have a hard time rooting for losses, even though in a season like this, I have no doubt which is more important to building the team. I'd kind of like you to address the Hayward pick, though. I'd bet my left gonad that you were one of the ones who wanted to trade that pick every year before we finally got it.

Then you've got to admit this is a failed system. You can't have a draft system that incites fans to root for losses. I just find it anti-sporty what can I say, goes against my principles. Maybe it's my soccer fan roots, an open market where the 2 last teams get automatically relegated to 2nd division and the 3rd and 4th worst teams in 1st division play against the 3rd and 4th teams in 2nd division in an absolutely dramatic, intense and fun game to watch. I know such thing wouldn't be possible here but maybe that's why I'm so reticent to rooting for losses. If as you say we get to the top no I won't be complaining, we'll all be celebrating as one.

I just think that the league needs to change, or interest is sadly going to drop.

 

[freakazoid]

I mean where do you draw the line my friend?

I draw the line at anything illegal that would get Utah in trouble with the league. Other than that, it's smart to use any and all available means to build and improve your team. I want a GM who is smart enough to do whatever needs to be done within the rules to build a winner. The NBA is a survival of the fittest, dog eat dog, nice guys finish last league. Make the tough decisions and believe in what you're doing, regardless of what the fans who can't see past the current season tend to think.

 

[Jamezz]

I draw the line at anything illegal that would get Utah in trouble with the league. Other than that, it's smart to use any and all available means to build and improve your team. I want a GM who is smart enough to do whatever needs to be done within the rules to build a winner. The NBA is a survival of the fittest, dog eat dog, nice guys finish last league. Make the tough decisions and believe in what you're doing, regardless of what the fans who can't see past the current season tend to think.

I'm bored, gonna go watch some TV. Hey nice chat.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Honestly, the only big decision that we have now is to keep Kanter or trade him for another asset. That is pretty much it. If we trade Kanter, we likely keep Booker. If we don't, he is probably gone. If Kanter isn't traded by the deadline, we are going to sign him, he is not important enough for a sign and trade. We probably roll with what we have plus a mid level exception signing of a combo guard. We will add a lottery pick, best player available, likely 12 or 11 who will either add depth to the bench or be used as a trade piece along with the GS pick to plug a hole. To be honest, the Jazz have enough young talent and need to think about adding some vets with playoff experience. Those guys can be fleeced off of treadmill teams for the promise of young talent which we can provide.

Lastly, for anyone who is worried about Utah becoming a perennial lottery team, you won't have to worry about it after this year. This is the last year for a while Utah will have a shot at a decent pick, and with Rudy tearing it up, we might already be too good, which is fine. When you have a player break out the way Rudy has, it's time take the next step in rebuilding. Just the same, make no mistake about it, this last high draft pick is important to building the team, no matter how little fans value draft picks and rookies.

Great points.
I think part of the problem is that many Jazz fans became spoiled and unrealistic. Outside of the Spurs, EVERY team in the NBA has done a major rebuild in the past several years and has had losing seasons. After Stockon/Malone, KOC had rebuilt 2x (Deron, Boozer, Memo, AK and then Jefferson-led teams) and only had 2 losing seasons. Not too bad considering Utah went to the WC Finals and survived the Sloan/Deron turmoil that would have ripped many franchises apart.

Jazz "rebuilt" but never really tore things down. DL could have EASILY put Utah in position to contend for the 6-8 seed every year by keeping Millsap, Foye, DMC and finding a free agent PG. But with major outlays for Favors, Millsap and Hayward, Kanter would be out the door after this season. In hindsight, one could argue that was the right thing to do. DL took a chance on Kanter developing and perhaps he was wrong. AS for other assets, forget anyone of significance; there's no space under the cap and the team would be right up against the luxury tax threshold. Draft picks? Cross off Exum. WE don't get an extra pick from GS and the Jazz' selection is likely in the 14th-18th range as Utah would have barely made or just missed the playoffs. So maybe the Jazz still draft Hood.

But we'd still have Gobert and Burke and be fighting with Phoenix, SA and OKC for those last playoff spots right now.

PG: Burke, vet PG at the MLE ($5.4M)
SG: Foye, Burks
SF: Hayward, DMC
C: Favors, Gobert
PF: Millsap, Evans
2014 draft pick: Hood or Ennis?

Coach: Tyrone Corbin

Anyone excited over that roster vs. what the Jazz are building right now?

 

[freakazoid]

Then you've got to admit this is a failed system. You can't have a draft system that incites fans to root for losses. I just find it anti-sporty what can I say, goes against my principles. Maybe it's my soccer fan roots, an open market where the 2 last teams get automatically relegated to 2nd division and the 3rd and 4th worst teams in 1st division play against the 3rd and 4th teams in 2nd division in an absolutely dramatic, intense and fun game to watch. I know such thing wouldn't be possible here but maybe that's why I'm so reticent to rooting for losses. If as you say we get to the top no I won't be complaining, we'll all be celebrating as one.

I just think that the league needs to change, or interest is sadly going to drop.

There are always going to be bad teams, tanking or no tanking. I see it as nature of the business, and any and all ideas to fix it are just idealistic solutions that don't work in the real world, or they are ideas that would bury the Jazz at some point. A few weeks ago, Detroit was just as bad as Philly, and most people probably assumed they were tanking. Pretty obvious now that they aren't, so the tanking problem is probably being made out to be worse than it really is. The thing that kills me is that if things changed the way you would like, it completely goes against small market teams who have very little FA draw. Careful what you wish for, because a few changes here and there could make it damn near impossible for a team like Utah to compete with the majority of the league.
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From a fan standpoint, I can understand why people feel like this, but from a competitive standpoint, I believe the good GMs are always building for the future and often make decisions that place more importance on the future than winning now.

 

[Coach Ellis]

I'm an unabashed supporter of last year's tank. And while I don't think they're tanking this year, they're also not good enough or experienced enough to consistently compete night in and night out. I'm okay with that. I root for them to win every game, but I realize and acknowledge that at this stage in the rebuild they will lose more than they win. And I'm okay with that too.

The Jazz are learning and playing the system and getting much needed playing time and experience and seeing which combinations work together, who should start vs. come off the bench and who has superstar potential (Hayward & Gobert) vs. who will help to support them (everybody else.) Lindsey and Snyder are going about this exactly how they should be. Growth and development from inside the building, identify the players to build around, accumulate assets and plan to make the big move to set your team ahead at the right moment.

Based on what I've seen from this team so far this season, they are collectively and individually taking huge steps in developing into a team that will start winning when they "get it". Hayward and Favors are there. Burks showed flashes before he got hurt. Gobert looks awesome and hopefully Exum will stand out as well. Enes has been better and might still have a key role moving forward. There's some serious talent on this team, and they're all learning how to make the pieces fit right. Once they do. . . I think they'll be really good and compete for the playoffs or more.

Don't get desperate and don't skip steps. They're on the right track, but they need to be patient.