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The Minimum FA Bargain Bin

It is based on his entire playoffs performances. How is that irrelevant?
He was a late second round pick by the Pacers and eventually waived to be picked up by the Warriors and waived to eventually find his way to the Stars where he was a GLeague all star. Let's not forget that Brantley, Kevin Murphy, Morris Almond, Eric Griffin and Pierre Jackson have also been GLeague all stars.
 
I guess if you say the argument is ripped to shreds it becomes true? I'm not really seeing it. Everyone keeps mentioning the terrible playoff series and I have acknowledged that it indeed terrible. What it comes down to is how we should evaluate players. Should we evaluate them by a larger body of work, or simply from their most recent playoff series?

I believe that we should take a more holistic view and literally no one has explained to me how that's a bad take. Seriously, if anyone can tell why that's incorrect I'd love to hear it. Instead, everyone just regurgitates that his last playoff series was bad. And to what effect? I've explained why that's not how I evaluate things. Mitchell is great example of how playoff performance can change so suddenly. Hell, Niang is a great example of this as well. He was really good against DEN. He was really bad against LAC. What gives? Fact is, there is a ton of variance in small sizes and you probably should form your opinion entirely from the last SSS.

As far as being an "elite" shooter, you know what I mean by that. If you really think that he is "elite" because he can make shots in the same way that Kevin Durant does you I don't know what to tell you. Of course I'm talking about his ability to shoot 3's in a catch in situation. That's what his role is and he's very good at. If you want to make the semantics argument and say he's elite because he doesn't shoot like KD, fine. That was never my argument in the first place. My point is that Niang is great at doing something that is highly valued in this league.

The last point is honestly laughable. If Niang is so awful, how is he blocking all of these young promising players? He's not. He's playing because he's better than them. It does make everything add up. We want Niang gone because he's the bogeyman that's preventing all of our amazing young talent from flourishing. Right...it all makes sense now. The irony is, Niang is that guy you're talking about. He developed his game, earned his playing time, and he performed well as a rotation player this year.

PS: I do respect that when you don't know what a word means, you use that as a personal insult. 10/10 funniest thing I've seen on this forum.
I’m still trying to figure out why Donovan is so paramount in your “Holistic” methodology when evaluating Niang. 2 players who play different positions, are asked to do different things within Utah’s Offense, and couldn’t have more different overall roles with the team. You also keep insisting that those who disagree with you keep pointing to 1 playoff series when that just isn’t true. But even with that being the case, I’ll humor you. Let’s take a quick look at both Donovan and Niang’s ENTIRE body of work. Both are 4 year veterans in the NBA. Donovan is a career 36% 3-point shooter and is averaging close to 24ppg. In his playoff career, his numbers actually jump up to 39% 3-point shooting and 29ppg. In his regular season career, Niang shoots a very good 40% from 3-point land while averaging 5ppg. In his playoff career, his 3-point shooting drops nearly 6 percentage points and his PPG stays almost exactly the same.

So in the simplest of terms, Donovan takes his game to higher levels come playoff time while Niang regresses. I’m pretty sure that Niang will always be a solid 3-point shooter during the regular season. This is for very obvious reasons. During an 82 game regular season, teams don’t really have the time to make wholesale changes to their Defensively philosophy for a February game vs the Utah Jazz and exactly ZERO NBA teams are going to throw wrinkles in their defense designed to stop Georges Niang.

And while Niang can knock down spot up 3’s at an impressive rate, I find it troublesome that he cannot get his shot off quickly, create shots for himself, shoot off the dribble, or even develop 1 offense go to move that frees him up from the defense and allows for him to get a shot off. I think it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that these deficiencies are magnified 10 fold come playoff time when teams have an entire series to game plan accordingly. Thus, we’re always going to see the same pattern from Niang. Solid 3 point shooting in limited minutes during the regular season, and defenses exploiting his weaknesses come playoff time, resulting in Niang not being able to do the 1 thing he does well.

As to your question as to why Quin plays Niang if he’s so bad, you can just reference the points I’ve already made above. Simply put: Niang is an effective shooter in games 1 thru 82 and our head coach is proving himself to be a creature of habit. Unfortunately, we’re starting to see a pattern with Quin in which he’s not willing to go through some regular season growing pains in order to have his team more ready to compete come playoff time. If you’d like to argue that point, you’re going to have a hard time swaying me considering we’re coming off a season in which we had the best record in the league during the regular season and then couldn’t even get to a game 7 in the 2nd round versus a lower seeded team. I wonder, why is that?

Niang’s 3-point shooting prowess during the regular season is certainly going to get him another NBA contract. Not only that, whichever team signs him is going to look pretty smart during the regular season, only to see the EXACT same problems resurface once it’s playoff time. Then that team is going to realize that they have a player who they can’t put on the court during the post season and who still has 2 more years on his contract. That team then has to burn an asset or two just so they can move his contract and replace him with a player that is actually useful in the playoffs. I’m not a religious man, but I’m praying that the Utah Jazz are not that team.
 
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Seen multiple people say they like/want Nader. Phoenix fans absolutely hate him and were dumbfounded when he was getting any minutes over Craig at all.
 
I’m still trying to figure out why Donovan is so paramount in your “Holistic” methodology when evaluating Niang. 2 players who play different positions, are asked to do different things within Utah’s Offense, and

If you took the time to google what holistic means, you might have a clue and realize that the comparison has nothing to do with their games. The comparison is that you can't look a small portion of a player's career and let that define them. There are countless examples of players having wide variance year to year or even series to series. Niang himself is one of those players. Played great against DEN, completely stunk against LAC. Point is, you should look at more than the most recent series to evaluate a player. It's not enough to look at a 4-7 game sample size and call it good. You have take a wider, more inclusive view and consider more things. One might call that a holistic approach.
 
Alright, so I know this is the minimum FA thread, but I looked at the list of all free agents that are somewhat within reason and there are some interesting names that a lot of these guys are going to go for value and that we have a decent change at landing one or two that could help up. I think any of these guys could have value even if semi-rotational.

[no particular order]

Danny Green
OPJ
Oladipo (okay, he's not actually on this list, but I was curious how I've heard absolutely nothing about his free agency)
Iguodala
Redick (too duplicative, would only sign for small role and a minimum, but why wouldn't he just go to LAL or Nets?)
Olynyk
Ariza
Tucker
Robin Lopez
Kaminsky
Elfrid Payton
Garrett Temple
Reggie Bullock
Mo Harkless
Wes Matthews
Biyombo
Batum
Dwight Howard
Markieff Morris
Matthew Dellavedova
Alex Len
Torrey Craig
Semi Ojeleye
Gorgui Dieng
RHJ
 
I’m still trying to figure out why Donovan is so paramount in your “Holistic” methodology when evaluating Niang. 2 players who play different positions, are asked to do different things within Utah’s Offense, and couldn’t have more different overall roles with the team. You also keep insisting that those who disagree with you keep pointing to 1 playoff series when that just isn’t true. But even with that being the case, I’ll humor you. Let’s take a quick look at both Donovan and Niang’s ENTIRE body of work. Both are 4 year veterans in the NBA. Donovan is a career 36% 3-point shooter and is averaging close to 24ppg. In his playoff career, his numbers actually jump up to 39% 3-point shooting and 29ppg. In his regular season career, Niang shoots a very good 40% from 3-point land while averaging 5ppg. In his playoff career, his 3-point shooting drops nearly 6 percentage points and his PPG stays almost exactly the same.

So in the simplest of terms, Donovan takes his game to higher levels come playoff time while Niang regresses. I’m pretty sure that Niang will always be a solid 3-point shooter during the regular season. This is for very obvious reasons. During an 82 game regular season, teams don’t really have the time to make wholesale changes to their Defensively philosophy for a February game vs the Utah Jazz and exactly ZERO NBA teams are going to throw wrinkles in their defense designed to stop Georges Niang.

And while Niang can knock down spot up 3’s at an impressive rate, I find it troublesome that he cannot get his shot off quickly, create shots for himself, shoot off the dribble, or even develop 1 offense go to move that frees him up from the defense and allows for him to get a shot off. I think it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that these deficiencies are magnified 10 fold come playoff time when teams have an entire series to game plan accordingly. Thus, we’re always going to see the same pattern from Niang. Solid 3 point shooting in limited minutes during the regular season, and defenses exploiting his weaknesses come playoff time, resulting in Niang not being able to do the 1 thing he does well.

As to your question as to why Quin plays Niang if he’s so bad, you can just reference the points I’ve already made above. Simply put: Niang is an effective shooter in games 1 thru 82 and our head coach is proving himself to be a creature of habit. Unfortunately, we’re starting to see a pattern with Quin in which he’s not willing to go through some regular season growing pains in order to have his team more ready to compete come playoff time. If you’d like to argue that point, you’re going to have a hard time swaying me considering we’re coming off a season in which we had the best record in the league during the regular season and then couldn’t even get to a game 7 in the 2nd round versus a lower seeded team. I wonder, why is that?

Niang’s 3-point shooting prowess during the regular season is certainly going to get him another NBA contract. Not only that, whichever team signs him is going to look pretty smart during the regular season, only to see the EXACT same problems resurface once it’s playoff time. Then that team is going to realize that they have a player who they can’t put on the court during the post season and who still has 2 more years on his contract. That team then has to burn an asset or two just so they can move his contract and replace him with a player that is actually useful in the playoffs. I’m not a religious man, but I’m praying that the Utah Jazz are not that team.
Quin played Jeff Green over Niang before DL cut Jeff to force Niang upon Quin.

Now that DL is gone, I doubt Quin would be all that interested in bringing Niang back.
 
Quin played Jeff Green over Niang before DL cut Jeff to force Niang upon Quin.

Now that DL is gone, I doubt Quin would be all that interested in bringing Niang back.
That makes it even more baffling that Quin wouldn’t alter his rotation in the Clipper series with Niang struggling so badly. Early in that series, we saw Ty Lue trying anything and everything with his rotation and in the beginning it looked like a desperation move; and maybe it was but it allowed him to find the rotation that worked best for the Clips.
 
Veteran Minimum deals:

Sterling Brown
Abdel Nader
Torrey Craig
Nicolas Batum
Timothe Luwawu Cabarrot
Moe Harkless
Rondae Hollis Jefferson
Stanley Johnson
James Ennis
Semi Ojeleye
Denzel Valentine
Justice Winslow
Trey Lyles


Some bigs:

Nerlens Noel
Harry Giles
Jarred Vanderbilt
Gorgui Deing
Alex Len
Dwayne Dedmon
Moe Wagner

I also haven’t had enough time yet to vet guys for the tax payer mid level exception but some quick names I like:

- Hamidou Diallo (may be a big pipe dream)
- Otto Porter jr (He’s not what he was pre injury)
- Paul Millsap
- Tony Snell
- Kent Bazmore
- Jamychal Green
 
I try not to let the playoffs influence me too much on players... But holy **** was Niang useless in the playoffs.
Any decision we make this off-season should be aimed at what would help us in the playoffs. I pretty much don't care for roster spots 9-15+2... Who cares if they won't see the floor? They might get you a win here or there in the regular season but in the grand scheme of things those players are inconsequential. We need to have at the very least 8 playable guys in the playoffs and preferably those 8 or 9 should provide some versatility for you so you can actually counter when the opponent makes adjustments rather than be dead in the water, like we've been two seasons in a row now once the opponent figures out our primary mode of play.

And if our guy no. 7 or 8 looks like one that won't be able to play in the playoffs... then I'm good letting him go. Any player that cannot play in the playoffs doesn't deserve much more than a vet min, IMO... i.e. end of bench type of money.
 
That makes it even more baffling that Quin wouldn’t alter his rotation in the Clipper series with Niang struggling so badly. Early in that series, we saw Ty Lue trying anything and everything with his rotation and in the beginning it looked like a desperation move; and maybe it was but it allowed him to find the rotation that worked best for the Clips.
Because like what's been reported, Quin wasn't happy with the end-of-bench guys DL selected for him and believed those guys weren't good enough for him to adjust his rotation. And he has a point here. Jeff Green was good enough for his rotation so Quin benched Niang in favor of Jeff, who's now had heck of a playoff run on back-to-back seasons.

The night before Jeff was waived, Quin played him 18min in a tight loss against the Heat where he shot 3 for 8, and only 8 minutes for Niang who went 1 for 7(pretty remarkable for a guy who's only played 8min).

I mean, if FO actually gave Quin the choice to keep one of those two players only a few hours after that game, you'd think it's a pretty easy choice for Quin to make, isn't it? Except DL didn't and he's now paid the price.
 
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Any decision we make this off-season should be aimed at what would help us in the playoffs. I pretty much don't care for roster spots 9-15+2... Who cares if they won't see the floor? They might get you a win here or there in the regular season but in the grand scheme of things those players are inconsequential. We need to have at the very least 8 playable guys in the playoffs and preferably those 8 or 9 should provide some versatility for you so you can actually counter when the opponent makes adjustments rather than be dead in the water, like we've been two seasons in a row now once the opponent figures out our primary mode of play.

And if our guy no. 7 or 8 looks like one that won't be able to play in the playoffs... then I'm good letting him go. Any player that cannot play in the playoffs doesn't deserve much more than a vet min, IMO... i.e. end of bench type of money.

Personally, I believe in Niang as someone who can play in the playoffs. He's one of the few guys on the roster that showed some understanding of defensive concepts outside of being a statue. His shooting was awful, but I believe in his entire body of work over one playoff series. You absolutely need guys to knock down open shots in the playoffs and I trust that he can be that guy. Defensively, I also trust him to give us more than Conley, Mitchell, Bogey, Clarkson, and maybe even Ingles at his age.

To me, Bogey+Clarkson is luxury we can't afford to have. Both provide little to nothing outside of scoring. IMO, the value that having both gives you is insurance when someone is injured, but the Jazz aren't winning the title they aren't healthy anyways. It makes sense to move one of them for a more versatile player. Having all these scorers/ballhandlers in surplus is a RS bonus, but not so much in the playoffs.
 
Personally, I believe in Niang as someone who can play in the playoffs. He's one of the few guys on the roster that showed some understanding of defensive concepts outside of being a statue. His shooting was awful, but I believe in his entire body of work over one playoff series. You absolutely need guys to knock down open shots in the playoffs and I trust that he can be that guy. Defensively, I also trust him to give us more than Conley, Mitchell, Bogey, Clarkson, and maybe even Ingles at his age.

To me, Bogey+Clarkson is luxury we can't afford to have. Both provide little to nothing outside of scoring. IMO, the value that having both gives you is insurance when someone is injured, but the Jazz aren't winning the title they aren't healthy anyways. It makes sense to move one of them for a more versatile player. Having all these scorers/ballhandlers in surplus is a RS bonus, but not so much in the playoffs.
Agreed. I doubt the Jazz see it that way though.
 
Based on what I saw in a recent Tribune article, we should have about 6.9 to work with. Not sure how that’s effected by Niang, no Niang or by the new projection for the Conley contract. Over the cap either way. But you can break up the MLE. Love to get RHJ at minimum and give the rest to Batum or possibly Portis.
 
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Personally, I believe in Niang as someone who can play in the playoffs. He's one of the few guys on the roster that showed some understanding of defensive concepts outside of being a statue. His shooting was awful, but I believe in his entire body of work over one playoff series. You absolutely need guys to knock down open shots in the playoffs and I trust that he can be that guy. Defensively, I also trust him to give us more than Conley, Mitchell, Bogey, Clarkson, and maybe even Ingles at his age.

To me, Bogey+Clarkson is luxury we can't afford to have. Both provide little to nothing outside of scoring. IMO, the value that having both gives you is insurance when someone is injured, but the Jazz aren't winning the title they aren't healthy anyways. It makes sense to move one of them for a more versatile player. Having all these scorers/ballhandlers in surplus is a RS bonus, but not so much in the playoffs.
Just his shooting was awful? Not the 3 min sequence in which he was like a legit -12 +/- almost all exclusively his doing?

“Stop trying to make fetch happen….”
 
Just his shooting was awful? Not the 3 min sequence in which he was like a legit -12 +/- almost all exclusively his doing?

“Stop trying to make fetch happen….”
Yeah, what? It may be fair to say that “it’s just one playoff series”, but it is a lie to say he played anything but absolutely terribly. It’s one of the worst stretch of important minutes I can ever recall from a Jazz player. He was breathtakingly bad.
 
Yeah, what? It may be fair to say that “it’s just one playoff series”, but it is a lie to say he played anything but absolutely terribly. It’s one of the worst stretch of important minutes I can ever recall from a Jazz player. He was breathtakingly bad.

I've never made the claim that he wasn't awful in that series. You can check the receipts and find that I called him awful in that series repeatedly. I just don't evaluate an entire player based on a single series.

I also never said it was just shooting was awful, but people love making debating against things they make up themselves here so I'm not surprised.
 
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