[Wes Mantooth]

Well obviously having a national number isn't an issue for every state, but it is for others. So the increase in federal minimum wage will not have much of an effect in Utah it sounds like. Then why is it an issue. It does sound funny, almost like "I'm against an increase in federal minimum wage because we already pay more than that", um, then why be against it?

I’ll be honest. I don’t exactly how it works. Clearly. But if the federally mandated minimum wage is set to $15/hour, I’d imagine that means no small business (or larger for that matter) could below that amount. Is that correct? That’s what I assumed,

 

[LogGrad98]

How about not raising the minimum wage at all and coming at this from another angle.

Make **** more affordable. Home prices are out of control. Regulate that ****. Make the cost of living go down and there wouldn't be as much need to change wages.

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Housing and healthcare are the number 1 and 2 things people spend money on. Fix those and the wages aren't as big a deal.

But the housing market across the country is a huge joke. I have a friend who is a contractor in Utah, building homes, and another here in Cali. Both are just swimming in money. They guy in Utah said he can charge almost double what he could just 6-8 years ago. Same here in some areas. Basic 2 BR home at 1200 sq ft here goes for 400k, 350k if it is in a part of town I wouldn't even want to walk in.

And we all know our healthcare system is terribly broken. We pay the most of any developed nation for the least amount of people covered and the lowest number of doctors per 1000 people, meaning poor access to healthcare with fewer doctors. This has to get fixed, this is a dire issue.

Why the US spends more on health care than other countries, but doesn't fare better: Study

An analysis published in JAMA breaks down the factors behind the high cost.

abcnews.go.com

So yeah, fixing these 2 things will make a big impact in people's lives. But the wages still need to keep pace with the growth of the economy and the success of business. It is not right that corporations have rising profits like we have never seen before yet the only people who really benefit are the executive and c-suite folks, and shareholders. Even this out a bit and the minimum wage conversation also mostly goes away.

 

[LogGrad98]

I’ll be honest. I don’t exactly how it works. Clearly. But if the federally mandated minimum wage is set to $15/hour, I’d imagine that means no small business (or larger for that matter) could below that amount. Is that correct? That’s what I assumed,

It kind of depends on how it is implemented. They could have provisions for smaller businesses, based on number of employees or gross revenues or something, while requiring higher wages for lager organizations. There are some minor provisions like this already in many states and even in the federal law abides by the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) which pretty much means it applies to companies with over $500k in revenue or if the business engages in "inter-state commerce" then they must abide, otherwise there are exceptions.

But this is a chance as well to build in a little more nuance into this imo. Tie it to an index, as multiple have suggested, or make it contingent on corporate revenues or something to that effect (one idea I saw somewhere was total company revenue divided by the total number of employees multiplied by half the corporate tax rate and give that to employees annually, something like that, was probably another limiter in there somewhere, but you get the gist).

Here is a small article about minimum wage.

When Must Employers Pay the Minimum Wage?

Most employers must pay their workers at least the federal minimum wage. Many states and cities have their own minimum wage laws that are higher than the federal rate.

www.nolo.com

 

[One Brow]

Guess it depends on how they are calculating a "living wage" and maybe you are underestimating.

Entirely possible.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Great topic. As a free-market person, I'll share my perspective. I realize this is a lengthy rant, but it's a topic I'm passionate about:

1 - As a starting point, everyone should understand the historic racist roots of the minimum wage. The minimum wage laws originated as a way to create unemployment among low-skilled minority workers. In other words, low-skilled white workers did not want competition that was willing to work for a lower wage. Minimum wage laws did not begin as a means to lift anyone out of poverty.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carrie...ivations-behind-minimum-wage/?sh=1fa2b3b811bb

2- Adjusting the minimum wage for inflation is nonsensical, or at least using this as justification for an adjustment to the rate. When the Federal Minimum wage law was enacted in 1938, the minimum wage was 25 cents. Adjusted for inflation that is now $4.64 today. Should we adjust the minimum wage rate down to $4.64? Also, lets keep in mind that it is the Federal Government, or more specifically the Federal Reserve, that creates inflation. So the federal government "prints money", causes inflation which disproportionately impacts prices across a variety of assets and consumer goods, and then asks employers to pay some employees more because of their economic policy? Does anyone else see the problem with this?

3- Only about 2% of employees earning an hourly wage make the minimum wage, over half of which are under 25 years of age.

4-Employers pay based on the productivity that an employee provides. If an employee can only provide $8 an hour in productivity, it's counterproductive to employ them at anything above that. This causes employers within industries that use a lot of low skilled labor to eliminate those jobs through automation, outsourcing, or replacing low skilled jobs with fewer higher-skilled positions. Since consumers (you, me, etc.) seek out low prices, this is the only realistic business decision since increasing prices will make them not as competitive.

5 - If we as a society want to ensure everyone has a minimum standard of living, why is that responsibility placed on employers? I'm in favor of policies that help people that can't support themselves, but if that's something we want to better accomplish, it should be through government programs, not restrictions on employees and employers. Maybe to accomplish that we need to consider expanding the EITC, more social welfare programs (that don't punish employment), UBI, etc. These are all better options than minimum wage. What is better, being employed at $5 with some government assistance, or being unemployed with lots of government assistance?

6 - A variety of studies show that increases in the minimum wage disproportionately hurt minorities. Why? Because if you are a low-skilled worker that can't provide $15 an hour of productivity, the law deems you unemployable. It is illegal to accept a job that pays you less than the government deems appropriate. That first job is a stepping stone to a better job down the road. Most people making a good salary today started out in a low paying job early in their life. Taking away those opportunities may take away opportunities for some to get their first work exposure and start to climb the ladder.

7- I'm against minimum wage laws entirely, however they definitely shouldn't be enacted at the Federal Level. The cost of living is so different across our country that it just doesn't make sense. Let each state decide. Also, the term "living wage" varies so much between individuals that it can't be used as a target for required minimum wage levels. A "living wage" is very different for a 19 year old with three roommates and a single mom with two children.

In short. There should be no minimum wage at all. It's rooted in racism and disproportionately hurts minorities today. There are a variety of ways to provide a baseline standard of living to all that don't negatively impact levels of employment and ability of the US to compete in a global marketplace. It should be abolished as soon as possible.

 

[Eminence]

The Fed doesn't create inflation here in America, what kind of nonsense is that?

(Arguably a notable driver of inflation in the last year or so during the pandemic, but certainly not the standard)

 

[Eminence]

Note I just looked up, according to the studies I saw approximately 40% of working Americans earn under $15/hr, this would be a significant pay-raise for something like 1/3rd of the country.

 

[gandalfe]

How about not raising the minimum wage at all and coming at this from another angle.

Make **** more affordable. Home prices are out of control. Regulate that ****. Make the cost of living go down and there wouldn't be as much need to change wages.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

I agree, BUT that would require regulating the price of... [DEEP BREATH] housing medical care medicine food transportation utilities telecommunications including internet clothing toiletries and entertainment [WHEW]. And each of those can be broken out into subsections that would each require separate regulation. That just seems like a pain in the butt and SOMETHING would get exempted whose price would skyrocket.

 

[One Brow]

4-Employers pay based on the productivity that an employee provides. If an employee can only provide $8 an hour in productivity, it's counterproductive to employ them at anything above that. This causes employers within industries that use a lot of low skilled labor to eliminate those jobs through automation, outsourcing, or replacing low skilled jobs with fewer higher-skilled positions. Since consumers (you, me, etc.) seek out low prices, this is the only realistic business decision since increasing prices will make them not as competitive.

Employers are quite happy to pay well below the productivity benefit derived from the employee. There would be no internet billionaires if the CEOs were not deriving wealth from the productivity created by others. Further, I don't see a lost of reluctance to automate right now. My local fast food places already have ordering kiosks, one of the local Wal-Marts has more than 2/3 of the check-out lines as self-checkout. So, how many jobs are really being preserved here?

6 - A variety of studies show that increases in the minimum wage disproportionately hurt minorities. Why? Because if you are a low-skilled worker that can't provide $15 an hour of productivity, the law deems you unemployable. It is illegal to accept a job that pays you less than the government deems appropriate. That first job is a stepping stone to a better job down the road. Most people making a good salary today started out in a low paying job early in their life. Taking away those opportunities may take away opportunities for some to get their first work exposure and start to climb the ladder.

Is this effect being seen in, for example, Seattle, which already has a $15 wage?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't have the answers but I can tell you there will be crazy unintended effects of having a $15 minimum wage. I think a bump is good and then you gradually phase in. I just don't know that you want to put all the burden on employers. I think a combo of an increase in minimum wage and the government taking no employee side payroll taxes could increase take home pay and spread the share of the increase. Employ some taxes on the wealthy/mega-wealthy to fund the payroll tax difference.

I don't see how restaurants, brick and mortar stores, etc. could handle something like this. I think there will be a ton of unemployment and big businesses that can scale, automate, and remove people from the process will eventually be the big beneficiaries and the small biz will die off.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I don't have the answers but I can tell you there will be crazy unintended effects of having a $15 minimum wage. I think a bump is good and then you gradually phase in. I just don't know that you want to put all the burden on employers. I think a combo of an increase in minimum wage and the government taking no employee side payroll taxes could increase take home pay and spread the share of the increase. Employ some taxes on the wealthy/mega-wealthy to fund the payroll tax difference.

I don't see how restaurants, brick and mortar stores, etc. could handle something like this. I think there will be a ton of unemployment and big businesses that can scale, automate, and remove people from the process will eventually be the big beneficiaries and the small biz will die off.

Are you saying the economy in America is so robust (and this goes before the pandemic) that businesses, especially small businesses, can't afford to pay their employees a livable wage?

 

[fishonjazz]

Great topic. As a free-market person, I'll share my perspective. I realize this is a lengthy rant, but it's a topic I'm passionate about:

1 - As a starting point, everyone should understand the historic racist roots of the minimum wage. The minimum wage laws originated as a way to create unemployment among low-skilled minority workers. In other words, low-skilled white workers did not want competition that was willing to work for a lower wage. Minimum wage laws did not begin as a means to lift anyone out of poverty.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carrie...ivations-behind-minimum-wage/?sh=1fa2b3b811bb

2- Adjusting the minimum wage for inflation is nonsensical, or at least using this as justification for an adjustment to the rate. When the Federal Minimum wage law was enacted in 1938, the minimum wage was 25 cents. Adjusted for inflation that is now $4.64 today. Should we adjust the minimum wage rate down to $4.64? Also, lets keep in mind that it is the Federal Government, or more specifically the Federal Reserve, that creates inflation. So the federal government "prints money", causes inflation which disproportionately impacts prices across a variety of assets and consumer goods, and then asks employers to pay some employees more because of their economic policy? Does anyone else see the problem with this?

3- Only about 2% of employees earning an hourly wage make the minimum wage, over half of which are under 25 years of age.

4-Employers pay based on the productivity that an employee provides. If an employee can only provide $8 an hour in productivity, it's counterproductive to employ them at anything above that. This causes employers within industries that use a lot of low skilled labor to eliminate those jobs through automation, outsourcing, or replacing low skilled jobs with fewer higher-skilled positions. Since consumers (you, me, etc.) seek out low prices, this is the only realistic business decision since increasing prices will make them not as competitive.

5 - If we as a society want to ensure everyone has a minimum standard of living, why is that responsibility placed on employers? I'm in favor of policies that help people that can't support themselves, but if that's something we want to better accomplish, it should be through government programs, not restrictions on employees and employers. Maybe to accomplish that we need to consider expanding the EITC, more social welfare programs (that don't punish employment), UBI, etc. These are all better options than minimum wage. What is better, being employed at $5 with some government assistance, or being unemployed with lots of government assistance?

6 - A variety of studies show that increases in the minimum wage disproportionately hurt minorities. Why? Because if you are a low-skilled worker that can't provide $15 an hour of productivity, the law deems you unemployable. It is illegal to accept a job that pays you less than the government deems appropriate. That first job is a stepping stone to a better job down the road. Most people making a good salary today started out in a low paying job early in their life. Taking away those opportunities may take away opportunities for some to get their first work exposure and start to climb the ladder.

7- I'm against minimum wage laws entirely, however they definitely shouldn't be enacted at the Federal Level. The cost of living is so different across our country that it just doesn't make sense. Let each state decide. Also, the term "living wage" varies so much between individuals that it can't be used as a target for required minimum wage levels. A "living wage" is very different for a 19 year old with three roommates and a single mom with two children.

In short. There should be no minimum wage at all. It's rooted in racism and disproportionately hurts minorities today. There are a variety of ways to provide a baseline standard of living to all that don't negatively impact levels of employment and ability of the US to compete in a global marketplace. It should be abolished as soon as possible.

I disagree completely with #4.
At my job employees get the same wage regardless of productivity or how hard they work.

Also I have done much harder and more productive work at much lower paying jobs.

Frequently people are not paid based on their effort or productivity or whatever you want to call it.

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