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The official "let's impeach Trump" thread

How can people look at you with a straight face, and say he was trying to stop corruption in Ukraine.

Dear heavens the Trump all in supporters have lost all sense of reality.

I'm liberal but have no real loyalty to any of these political clowns. Even the ones I really like.
If they are guilty punish them all, dem or rep. If Biden did something illegal to protect his son,
investigate, and prosecute. But we all know Trump wasn't after the good of the nation. How many
other calls to other leaders is he asking to stop or help with corruption?

He needs to go, and go ASAP. The whining on twitter, and poor me is beyond pathetic. I can't wait until he is gone.
Hopefully lesson learned by everyone.
 
Can Republicans save their soul by either impeaching Trump or, at the very least, not supporting his reelection?

Personally, I think it's about ten years too late, but Jeff Flake, former conservative senator from Arizona, thinks there’s still time if only his former colleagues in the senate step up and hold Trump accountable for his abuse of power in Ukraine.

"Our country will have more presidents. But principles, well, we get just one crack at those. For those who want to put America first, it is critically important at this moment in the life of our country that we all, here and now, do just that. Trust me when I say that you can go elsewhere for a job. But you cannot go elsewhere for a soul.”

Full article here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e876f6-e2d3-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html
 
Jonah said:
Can Republicans save their soul by either impeaching Trump or, at the very least, not supporting his reelection?

Personally, I think it's about ten years too late, but Jeff Flake, former conservative senator from Arizona, thinks there’s still time if only his former colleagues in the senate step up and hold Trump accountable for his abuse of power in Ukraine.

"Our country will have more presidents. But principles, well, we get just one crack at those. For those who want to put America first, it is critically important at this moment in the life of our country that we all, here and now, do just that. Trust me when I say that you can go elsewhere for a job. But you cannot go elsewhere for a soul.”

Full article here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e876f6-e2d3-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html
Click to expand...

I hope so.

But Flake is a funny guy. What did he do to fight trump when he was in a position to do so?

I guess it’s always easier to talk about fighting for principles than to actually fight for them.
 
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I honestly wish I believed those involved would learn a lesson from all of this - but I'm old and jaded now.

This is going to be just like the war in Iraq. In 2027, no one will acknowledge they ever supported all this nonsense. They will simply pretend away that the party was ever ALL IN on Trumpist insanity. There will be no reckoning among the faithful that something about their ideology enabled Trumpism to occur. Instead it will be treated like a troubled NBA team that fired an unsuccessful coach and the party members will keep right on wearing red, cheering on whoever the next standard bearer of conservative orthodoxy is, and simply omit this chapter from their history. Trump will be a Tyrone Corbin in the memory of GOP members.
 
The Thriller said:
I hope so.

But Flake is a funny guy. What did he do to fight trump when he was in a position to do so?

I guess it’s always easier to talk about fighting for principles than to actually fight for them.
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong, speaking out is the right thing for him to do, but he could have fought for his principles in the Senate. Instead he ran away.
 
Heathme said:
Conservative points of view on Ukraine:
Click to expand...

This is an honest question: why does it matter to you if the point of view is "conservative?"

I ask because this is a truly perplexing way to approach information and argument to me. One of the handful of benefits of the Trump era, for me personally, is I got a sense of a particular type of conservative that I could read regularly because they had things to say about this particular moment in time. I read, and consider, former GOP figures like David Frum and Max Boot far more now than I ever would have 5-6 years ago. I didn't even know who Ben Wittes or George Conway were, but they are critical reading for understanding this moment in time and the stresses that this presidency have put on American politics. That these writers are "conservative" is kind of besides the point. They just have something to say that matters.

Different writers kind of wax and wane in importance depending on the moment. During 2008-2009, Paul Krugman truly was the best columnist for understanding what was happening - he was uniquely situated to diagnose and describe problems related to liquidity traps. That doesn't make him always right, but it made him essential during his season of influence. 2017-2018, Masha Gessen was a must read in the New Yorker because she had a unique point of view about what the increasing prominence of Russia meant in American politics. Gessen's political views don't even neatly track a left/right spectrum in a traditional sense: as a foreigner she's orthogonal to the whole affair.

Is there some particular reason that "conservative" is the guiding light for what you want to read?
 
JazzyFresh said:
He admitted guilt... In that case I would take his word for it. As far as the limitations? With the admission of guilt I'd like him to be held accountable.
Click to expand...

But not so much as a proper investigation if he didn't admit? Even if it were corroborated?
 
@Joe Bagadonuts

Over the weekend the Ukrainian paper did a story on that Shokin affidavit that you posted Friday that I guess Giuliani is running around showing on TV. I give you this one because it's outside the US left/right ecosystem. It's the description of events by the people who live there and follow the local politics.

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ex-prosecutor-general-shokin-defends-oligarch-firtash.html

A couple key details.

A highly unpopular prosecutor general, Shokin was fired in April 2016 after months of demands from the country’s pro-reform and anti-graft community for his failure to investigate the corruption of fugitive President Victor Yanukovych’s regime. Yanukovych was ousted in the EuroMaidan Revolution in 2014 and fled to Russia.
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The motivations behind the affidavit are pretty interesting. I was unaware that Shokin is suing the government trying to win his job back, so that's why he's recasting himself as being "too tough" on corruption.

Shokin is currently trying to win his job back through the Supreme Court of Ukraine.
Click to expand...

Additionally, the allegations are important in the Firtash extradition hearing because Austrian law forbids extradition if there's a political motive for the request. Firtash is being charged in the US with .... corruption. So the allegations made here by Shokin are actually in service of shielding someone charged with corruption from prosecution overseas.

Oligarch Firtash was accused by the U.S. Department of Justice of conspiring to bribe officials in India with $18.5 million for a permit to develop titanium mines in the eastern coastal Indian state of Andhra Pradesh. The produced titanium was supposed to be sold to Boeing, an airplane manufacturer with headquarters in Chicago.

Arrested in Vienna in 2014, Firtash has been fighting extradition to the U.S. with varying degrees of success. Most recently, an Austrian court and the country’s justice minister allowed his extradition to stand trial in Chicago. His lawyers have appealed.

...


As he grew his influence and fortune through close alliances with politicians, Firtash privatized gas distribution networks and monopolized the fertilizer market. According to an investigation by Ukrainian journalists, he de-facto controls a state-owned chemical plant in Sumy.

Daria Kaleniuk, head of the Anti-Corruption Action Center, wrote on facebook that Shokin’s affidavit may be used by Firtash’s lawyers as evidence of political subtext in his prosecution.

According to Austrian law, extradition is impossible if the prosecution is politically motivated.
Click to expand...

This explains the affidavit as strategic on a number of levels. And certainly is line with the longstanding view of Shokin as a historically reviled public figure in Ukraine.
 
sirkickyass said:
@Joe Bagadonuts

Over the weekend the Ukrainian paper did a story on that Shokin affidavit that you posted Friday that I guess Giuliani is running around showing on TV. I give you this one because it's outside the US left/right ecosystem. It's the description of events by the people who live there and follow the local politics.

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ex-prosecutor-general-shokin-defends-oligarch-firtash.html

A couple key details.



The motivations behind the affidavit are pretty interesting. I was unaware that Shokin is suing the government trying to win his job back, so that's why he's recasting himself as being "too tough" on corruption.



Additionally, the allegations are important in the Firtash extradition hearing because Austrian law forbids extradition if there's a political motive for the request. Firtash is being charged in the US with .... corruption. So the allegations made here by Shokin are actually in service of shielding someone charged with corruption from prosecution overseas.



This explains the affidavit as strategic on a number of levels. And certainly is line with the longstanding view of Shokin as a historically reviled public figure in Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Thanks for the info.
 
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